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I'm getting quite sick of people being attacked for being sexist in the F/OSS world. We need to lighten up a bit, it's getting ridiculous.
Monday, 28-Sep-09 21:09:35 UTC from web-
@fabsh It's unpleasant but necessary IMO. People need to become more aware and tolerant. Too much like an old boys' club otherwise.
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@fabsh What attacks are you referring to as ridiculous?
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@lucy I agree mostly. Still, it's becoming the new Hitler argument. A kind of instant nuke the person witthout discussion first...
rpcutts likes this. -
@snan The situation in general. But the latest Shuttleworth thing tipped the whole thing over. Talk about being too easily offended...
rpcutts likes this. -
@fabsh "that comment wasn't very productive" =/= "you're an evil sexist pig" is the part that seems to be getting lost.
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@fabsh That the criticisms reach so many is an interesting change that might make the F/OSS world easier to be in. Might backlash, though.
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@fabsh The criticisms themselves aren’t new; Skud, for example, has been fighting the good fight for over a decade (and we love her for it).
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@fabsh Yeah, know what you mean. Need to encourage discussion without people feeling accused of something horrendous.
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@fabsh .. The problem belongs to us all, not just those who've misspoke. Generally they are just reflecting the thoughts of the many.
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@lucy I totally agree. I really think Mark was just making an observation. And there *was* truth in what he said.
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@fabsh Ah, I think what Mark said was sexist + should be addressed. But he isn't alone- we've all made similar comments just not so publicly
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@lucy I actually think he's correct to a point. The delivery was crap, but to a certain extend he is right.
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@lucy All my experience suggests that more men are interested in F/OSS than women and that was basically what he was saying.
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@lucy I am not talking about why this might be. Just the fact that it seems to be that way.
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@fabsh But how will it change if we keep making that assumption?Also,what about the females currently in FOSS,hardly makes them feel welcome
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@fabsh There were better ways of phrasing what he said, IMO, that would have been more inclusive/welcoming.
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@lucy If it is a fact, it is not an assumption. You are right that it has to be addressed, though.
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@lucy But the females in FOSS can't take *everything* personal like that. They will never get anywhere. That is what I mean.
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@lucy I am pretty sure Mark is on your side. If people attack him for what was most likely just a sloppy incident...
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@fabsh The assumption was that 'girls' aren't interested in FOSS and need things explaining simply. I know this is wrong ;)
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@fabsh s/they/we
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@lucy I mean, if you lose him, what about the people that are *really* sexist? At some point it's a lost cause...
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@lucy Not all girls. But most of them. About 95% as far as all of the girls I know are concerned. It's a much higher number than with men.
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watching @fabsh walking into a minefield
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@fabsh I don't think he should be attacked, but I think it was right that he was pulled up on it. It's necessary if things are to change.
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@lucy Now, we can discuss why that is, but as an observation, it wasn't *that* far off...
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@haris Oh, don't worry about me. I am prepared to stand up for my believes. I am not gonna shy away b/c its an unpopular subject.
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@fabsh Totally agree - we're reaching the point where we can't discuss how to address gender imbalance in computing.
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@fabsh And we've certainly reached the point where stating there is such an imbalance is risking a backlash.
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@lucy I agree with you. But some people really took it too far. In my eyes that's as crap (or even worse) as the original incident.
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@lucy It fosters an environment where pretty soon nobody will have any sympathy with the people fighting the good fight.
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@lucy I mean, I start getting that feeling (against my better judgement) and my ma brought me up as emancipated as you can pretty much be...
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@fabsh But I'd argue that the assumption wasn't very nice to the 5% of women and may help dissuade the 95% from getting interested.
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@lucy That may be. But I heard plenty of "not nice" stuff directed at Germans, or non-kernel devs or whatever.
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@lucy But I don't go around attacking people like that.
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@fabsh It's a difficult problem I admit. It needs to be talked about but in a productive way. Most stuff I've read has kept it in proportion
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@dwd Yup. That's what I mean. I think. ;)
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@lucy I think we in the FOSS world concentrate too much on the differences. We need to pull ourselves together.
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@lucy People need to stop saying stupid stuff like that and people need to stop being easily offended. No matter their gender or sexuality.
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@fabsh Thing is, women stop being offended and walk away instead - that's one reason they aren't here (or are more likely to drop out).
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@fabsh what part of "we realize you're a nice man and just made a mistake, please try to do better" is a personal attack?
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@fabsh Telling people to "stop being offended" and "get over it" doesn't help things in the slightest.
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@maco That some people are acting as if he said "OK, I understand this kernel stuff is too complicated for you chicks.." *that* would be bad
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@lucy OK. That is a problem. But we can't stop all of this stuff. At some point you just need a thick skin, no matter what gender...
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@lucy Now, for example: I know plenty of women that don't take shit from *anyone*, incl. my gf. They jost don't find FOSS interesting.
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@bma Attacking anyone who does the slightest miss step doesn't either. It just gets all the men to say whatever and stop caring...
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@fabsh wait were you agreeing with the statement that "girls need things explained simply"? kind of insults our intelligence...
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@fabsh Why being in a minority makes a difference: http://naramore.net/blog/gender-in-it-oss-php-and-how-it-affects-us-all-1
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@maco No. I am not talking about that. I am talking about the fact that he said women aren't generally interested...
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@fabsh Also http://www.gendershouldntmatter.org/ (these are to everyone in this debate, not just Fab btw).
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@maco What you said is sexist. But to me that isn't the point. It's just insulting. I'd be pissed if he said that about *anyone*.
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@fabsh Most people have been calling for an apology, from what I've seen; that's not "attacking".
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@bma Well, calling for an appology for every little thing you do is stupid. You know how many people/nationalities we have "insulted" on LO?
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@fabsh "I can't choose whether someone is offended by my actions. I can choose whether I care." From http://ur1.ca/cmfx
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@fabsh sorry for that ;-)
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@jwildeboer No! I am sorry! And @daveyates is too! ;)
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@fabsh I agree that attacking Mark (or whoever) is wrong, however most people aren't attacking just discussing.
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@fabsh Comment seemed to me as if 'girls' was who he wanted to impress. If he had said people would call him gay.Can't win
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@fabsh A battle worth fighting, but done in the right way.I've seen too many m+f walk away over seemingly small statements in FOSS groups.
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@dwd Why does it need to be addressed?Find me 25 good lady coders & they'll be warmly accepted.
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@lucy I agree with you.
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@fabsh Ignoring a problem changes nothing, though. Sure, some things are small — but this is a high-profile person in a high-profile talk.
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@sleepynate HA!!!!!!
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@sleepynate that was prob the best line ever
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just noticed all the pretty #bathcamp photos on flickr tagged #bathcamp09 http://ur1.ca/cmgy :)
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@sleepynate HAHAH sry...so sry... rofl
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@sleepynate had your speakers turned up a bit much did you?
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@fabsh Why should being thick-skinned be a pre-depends for FOSS contribution? Isn't that why the CoC is anti-elitism?
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@sleepynate im still laughing, if you havent seen that movie.. its a great watch lol
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@mase Why would it make him gay to say he wants everyone to be impressed with Ubuntu?
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@shadowspar Sexist bastard. How dare you say "guys"?
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@sleepynate If you've nothing to contribute, shut up.
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@sleepynate Trust me, I don't subscribe to assholes like you
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@sleepynate I know where it is; I'm not as stupid as you. Why don't you just block the feminists if you're so allergic to it?
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@sleepynate I'd rather see the enemy coming
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@maco I thought being thick-skinned was required for simple existence; many of us are in discriminated-against groups.
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@mtrausch It should *not* be required. Why can't FOSS be a haven of actual *gasp* acceptance?
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@maco It is a pre-requesite for a lot in life. And I already said that he violated that CoC and that that is wrong and telling him is good.
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@maco Like the real world, depends on where you are in it—there's no need to be aggressive to me, I did nothing to you but speak. Breathe.
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@maco ...in a civil manner that mirrors the scale of the original incident.
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@shadowspar Well, that is often in the delivery. I would probably try to tell them that what they said wasn't so smart. That usually works..
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@laserjock I have no idea if it's lower. I'm suggesting it'd be nice if it was higher though
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@maco It's okay. I can understand the frustration. Just remember to breathe and relax; we all forget to do that all too regularly.
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@laserjock who cares if society is better / worse? We can do better:) http://geekfeminism.org/2009/08/27/society-sucks-but-we-dont-have-to/
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@laserjock have you read the FLOSSPOLS report? The sexism is there. You're likely not noticing or experiencing it.
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@laserjock so... you agree that it's a community problem then? Perhaps we're arguing over eachother :)
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@laserjock you know that that's all @skud asked for in the first place, right? Also, http://tinyurl.com/yd59e5h - just sayin'
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@hypatiadotca Oh, I do believe it. But I also son't see women as fundamentally different. Maybe that's the problem...
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@fabsh We're not fundamentally different, aside from chromosomes and dangly parts. We're being treated differently, tho, &that's a problem.
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@fabsh someone made http://www.gendershouldntmatter.org/ which is a great visual on the issue :)
Greg K Nicholson likes this. -
@hypatiadotca Everybody is treated different. I am treated different because I am not a native speaker. The difference is I don't care...
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@fabsh if you were harassed, put down, and excluded because of that, would you keep contributing? Not sure what kind of "different" u mean.
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@fabsh At the risk of stating the obvious though, you are a pretty combative person. I'm not saying that's bad :)
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@fabsh which of course isn't to say that anyone should treat you poorly for that /either/. Is it so awful to aim for being nice 2 eachother?
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