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My #Blog post about my 2010 switch from #ubuntu to !debian due to software freedom reasons. It's good to be home again: http://ur1.ca/jtms
Thursday, 14-Jan-10 17:11:11 UTC from web- Evan Prodromou, Yasen Pramatarov and JC John Sese Cuneta and 9 others like this.
- JC John Sese Cuneta and Luis Uribe repeated this.
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Starting now,my !sflc blog is a *proper* subset of my personal blog. Readjust RSS readers to ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/rss.xml for full content.
Testing account likes this. -
@bkuhn I think "a for-profit company is…always going to put the acquisition of wealth above any community principle" is a bit strong
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@bkuhn Agree vigilance is required, though. Ubuntu's copyright assignment policy is odious (and prevents me from contributing, for one).
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@bkuhn thanks for the fix with re your blog vs sflc, both are in my reader and that should reduce the dups.
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@dbs, I know some read that as strong, but a for-profit's first duty is $$$ for its investors. That will always win out in the end.
Matthew Davidson and Shashi Gowda like this. -
@bkuhn nice post, it seems #canonical will always have some proprietary bit kept to itself, like launchpad until recently...
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@bkuhn I kept waiting for a mention of gnewsense
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@bkuhn for-profit trdmrk vs community trdmrk - conflict inevitable because value of 1st based on exclusivity and 2nd on widespread adoption?
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@bkuhn appreciate the links to further reading on copyright... food for thought
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@bkuhn Are there ways to change that though? Can it be done within existing law or will it need a change of law?
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@bkuhn Nice article. But blog commenting via twitter is not at all satisfying.
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@magicfab noup, A couple of hours are enough
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@magicfab, Oh, it takes me two days to get a fresh install in order to my usual needs no matter the distribution. I'm picking about setup.
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@sdanna,I don't do blog commenting via #MyTwitFace, but rather #identica. My hope is for a javascript widget to put the thread on blog page.
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@bkuhn Great article, Bradley.
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@bkuhn if have a standard install you use, check out http://twurl.nl/0d5ydz its a FaiF system backup tool (build by Linux Outlaws community)
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@bkuhn How do you define "thread" in the case of such a widget, though? And really, is discussion via 140 char chunks the right way to go?
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@bkuhn k, you had me worried. I'm very interested in reading more about your Ubuntu -> Debian impressions, tx!
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@bkuhn great post. Ubuntu One makes me want to jump ship too. I'm curious though, did you consider Trisquel?
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@bkuhn how can that be true? Who are the shareholders in Canonical? Are there even any outside investors? Isn't it all Shuttleworth?
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@mem so they will _always_ have a "proprietary bit" but then you go on to refer to Launchpad which has been completely opened up?
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@balleyne yet you have no problem using Delicious, Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook and a whole other host of proprietary services?
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@balleyne if we look at the past, for example with LP, then the future is bright. Let's not forgot that major parts of U1 are already open.
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@brucevdk, Shuttleworth's first duty for Canonical must be $$$. If it were otherwise, why wouldn't he put Ubuntu into a not-for-profit org?
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Updated ur1.ca/jtms : #Canonical is now encouraging #Ubuntu users to use proprietary software from IBM. #Red_Hat history repeats itself.
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@bkuhn Encouragement vs. Support are two separate things. I encourage you to review the different, (and support your decision either way) ;)
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@bkuhn hmm... maybe ubuntu is a south african word meaning "replace free software programs with others"
Bradley M. Kuhn and Ted Smith like this. -
@bkuhn Maybe because most not-for-profits are ineffective dithering subcommittee generators?
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@bkuhn Paradoxically corporate-sponsored Ubuntu has a healthy, functional, inclusive community and non-profit Debian has... the other thing.
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@evan i doubt you'll find that the ubuntu community responds well to criticism of non-free software inclusion no matter how tactful.
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@evan The corp. interest forces them to make software people want and need. Ideals are great, until they make your software less useful.
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@evan so ubunto hasn't got any problems? or is there maybe more brainwashing going on than "democracy" in debian?
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@olhe of course Ubuntu has problems! Every community has problems. But Ubuntu's is far more dynamic, diverse, and effective than Debian's.
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@evan too many cooks spoil the broth, but this is also a strength of debian in my opinion
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♺ @bkuhn: ur1.ca/jtms : #Canonical is now encouraging #Ubuntu users to use proprietary software from IBM. #Red_Hat history repeats itself.
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@bkuhn yet another reason i moved back to debian.
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@bkuhn I'm about to take the same decision, when I'll be able to run my GAM500 with Debian unstable =)
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@brucevdk I'm migrating *away* from those services. I don't want to *add* proprietary dependencies, but I'm working to remove them.
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@brucevdk I hope that it turns out like Launchpad, but it's annoying that they're making the same mistake twice. Why start proprietary?
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@evan Debian's community is narrow and engineering-driven, Ubuntu's is broader and more diverse. Both have merits and flaws.
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@balleyne I'm not sure, perhaps because they aren't confident they'd be able to commercially exploit the venture otherwise (make a living).
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@openuniverse there isn't any non-free software being included with Ubuntu (anything that is installable from Ubuntu One is free software)
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@brucevdk i didn't say there absolutely was (yet) but nvm that, can i install a .deb or set option somewhere to make ubuntu use linux-libre?
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@evan In the parts that I work on (Python-related, Ubuntu universe), the Debian community and the Ubuntu community are the same community.
absent likes this. -
@evan good comment! I'm agree :) (English isn't my native language, sorry)
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@evan I'll take ineffective and dithering over corrupt any day. Disclosure: speaking as an ineffective ditherer.
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@evan ... and is it seems to me from my non-debian, non-ubuntu chair, that Ubuntu differs from Debian also in its unsustainablity.
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@snapl, Agree they're different, but I think announcing availability of "support" in talking glowingly about product is "encouragement".
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@bkuhn Generally the quality of my personal engagement with a software project has been orthogonal to whether it's for- or non-profit.
Andy C likes this. -
@evan take the rest of the day, sorry month, sorry year off :-)
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@bkuhn Oh come on now. Press releases for support that don't talk "glowingly" about the product they support are a rare breed at best.
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@bkuhn "Introducing support for (product). It's a big hunk of shit, and frankly isn't worth it, but dammit if we don't support it anyway".
0u likes this. -
@bkuhn Name me corporate-backed OSS project that exists apart from the corporate backing? There's a symbiotic relationship between the two.
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@bkuhn So, they don't believe in the principles of Free Software or of Open Source Software. Or are they recommending sub-standard sw?
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@gabe, my issue is #Ubuntu community lacks primary community principle of software freedom: top priority is to get *rid* of proprietary.
Seth Johnson likes this. -
@gabe I've heard the same thing said about BSD > linux
joshix and Shashi Gowda like this. -
@freemjd so now Canonical (or any for-profit company) is automatically corrupt? Those are some harsh words my man.
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@brucevdk A corporation's 1st duty is to it's owners. Whoever you are in that company, what you think is right isn't what you're paid for.
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@freemjd you're wrong, ignoring that though, it would still not explain why that would make a for-profit "corrupt" #lteq140die
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@bkuhn Define "non community things on backs of volunteers"?
Miloš Mandarić likes this. -
@brucevdk Your mother is a hamster, and your father smells of elderberries.
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@jonobacon, blog post that started this thread ( ur1.ca/jtms ) discussed a list of software-freedom-community unfriendly things in #Ubuntu.
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@bkuhn I left ubuntu for many of the same reasons you mentioned ( ur1.ca/jtms ) & I went to fedora because i was pissy about lennys release
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@bkuhn you said our top priority should be to "get *rid* of proprietary" - we did that with Gobuntu and it died from lack of interest.
Miloš Mandarić likes this. -
@threethirty What was wrong with #Lenny?
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@claudiom they shipped with binary blobs against thier own guidlines, and decided they would remove them after release.
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@threethirty Oh right, I forgot about that.
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@claudiom a lot of people have. Its not a full on rage, just me being pissy. Although I see it as a first step down the wrong path
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@threethirty I still need to give #Fedora a go on the netbook. Ubuntu is giving me that Windows feel. Not a bad thing, but not for me.
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@claudiom if you need anything let me know. You should try out the fedora moblin. Its just a package that you can add, its just another WM
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@threethirty Will do. I'm pretty happy with a standard desktop, but I'll check it out.
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@brucevdk which is quite disappointing, that a FOSS company thinks they can't make money off FOSS. I'd sign up immediately were it AGPL.
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@balleyne I can't speak for Canonical, so we have to ask them. If so, the next question would be: "What would convince you?" #lteq140die
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@jonobacon wasnt it more like died from poor timing and circumstance? Ubucrowd's unaware of the issues and the gNewscrowd had no confidence?
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@jonobacon lack of interest in one project != lack of interest in the idea http://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html
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Bradley M. Kuhn likes this.
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@bkuhn Where does it say that in the announcement? There is a difference between "Use Lotus" or "We are offering support for people who are"
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@ubuntuworker No there isn't. It's "We support people who use it", "We make it easier for you to use it", "We recommend using it".
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@ubuntuworker Anyone volunteering for Free Software and using a copyleft license is not stupid for that. I contribute to Ubuntu translation.
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@bkuhn they're getting more 'supportive' and 'encouraging' i guess http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7677/1.html
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@ubuntuworker, no. Some are making charitable donations to a for-profit partly proprietary company: a bit "too nice" but not stupid per se.
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@bkuhn: fwiw, I think that Canonical has given a whole lot of good things back to me in return for the time that I contribute to Ubuntu.
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@segphault,I'm mainly thinking there of unbalanced copyright assignment on Canonical copyleft works. Assigners give all for nothing back.
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@bkuhn Awesome discussion. Feels like alot of what your saying comes down to "corporation = bad"...?
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@bkuhn Not that I'm pro-corp. at all, but how would you like to see corps work with OSS/communities? (140 chars :-P)
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@bkuhn Ok, this is interesting.So, any #opensource contributors are "a bit too nice", because every contribution is going into corp.distros?
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@osamak actually, there are people who have to work with those commercial software, but want to use Ubuntu as their daily environment.
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@bkuhn This copyright assignment only applies for software which were/are developed at !Canonical.
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@ubuntuworker It's not a matter of payment. User-subjugating software are being promoted, and that's the issue.
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@osamak So? Most users won't use it, only Companies will eventually buy this support contract and are going to be happy. Which is good.
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@osamak actually I would be happy, when we would have a good exchange client on Ubuntu or any linux distro, evolution is not a choice
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@ubuntuworker He didn't say that, you're still missing the point.
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@ubuntuworker No. Not every project requires copyright assignment. And some assignments are not to for profits.
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@brews,I don't think for-profit corporations are inherently bad. They're dangerous & one must assume profit motive's >> all other principles
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@brews, IMO, for-profit corps should be contributors that are checked & balanced by a non-profit/volunteer group that actually runs the show
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@brews, Oh, & more of my opinions on how for-profit work should itneract with FLOSS are in Episode 0x14 of !sflc 's podcast: ur1.ca/9k82
Osama Khalid likes this. -
@bkuhn did you check the link I dented you about the mer project? a mobile phone distro based on the FOSS component of maemo?
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@ubuntuworker, I realize that. However, that doesn't excuse the failure to promise assigned works will always be FaiF. e.g., !fsf does that
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Thanks for the link @bkuhn.
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Updated ur1.ca/jtms post about !debian switch now includes Asay hiring. #Canonical now run by someone who'd mark !ubuntu Bug 1 as Invalid?
Jan Stedehouder likes this. -
@bkuhn Disregarding history, do you think Fedora is corp-controlled pro-proprietary now? I mean, they are so Free, it literally hurts (me).
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@bkuhn It is as FaiF as Debian, IMO. Maybe more? I understand if your move is history-influenced, though. Just trying to learn... :)
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@bkuhn Fedora definitely feels more *open* as far as the decision-making process is concerned.
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@fabsh,purely results-oriented, #Fedora is very good on software freedom issues. But,I also like to evaluate based on "corruption potential"
drew Roberts likes this. -
@bkuhn I don't mind influence, myself. I think we need to evaluate the result. It's something to keep an eye on, though. :)
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@bkuhn True. Totally BTW: you should try mustard. It's GPLv3 and you can install the APK from the site: http://macno.org/mustard
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@bkuhn Surely your measure is too conservative. If RMS was bought for $1tn by Monsanto then the FSF would be corrupted? i.e. c-factor = 1
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@bkuhn Also, RHT's power to corrupt is *seriously* less than at any time ever; worst RHT can do now is ruin it's rep with FLOSS communities.
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@bkuhn Sorry, you have that backwards; Fedora can now survive fine without RHT, but the reverse isn't necc. true.
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@bkuhn I dont think thats true I think its the other way around, I don't think that RHT can survive without fedora.
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@noahm: I don't know the actual number, but I do know that it's non-zero.
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@bkuhn Yes, and while I suspect your guess is correct, I don't know any better than you do. I don't know if anybody does.
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@bkuhn why should be this one figured out? Does this helps in any case?Wouldn't it be better to solvebugs, spread the word than ridin' on
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@seraphyn,it'd be useful to have "health meter" of projects: how autonomous & resiliant are they? Social science data re: FLOSS is valuable.
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@bkuhn Binary blogs? That sounds devishly hard to read... Talk about pain! ;)
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@fabsh, just as you dented that,I realized I typoed "blobs" as "blogs" Binary blogs might be cool, but only Cmdr Data could read them easily
Christopher Allan Webber likes this. -
@bkuhn Regardless, it is the stalwart RHT emp. that help keep RHT honest, so I wouldn't want the influence to drop too much. :)
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@bkuhn Been lazy about tracking and reporting so http://bit.ly/aAyePZ has old data. Last run ~6 mon ago, non-RHT greatly outnumbered RHT emp
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@bkuhn Hehehe.... Yeah. But Data can read everything in like 2 secs anyway... :)
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@fabsh,Processing... Processing... Computer, increase speed. Processing... Processing... Captain, I believe I know why the ship has stopped
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@bkuhn Exactly. I love Data. He always was my favourite character on TNG. Man, I loved that show when I was a kid...
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@bkuhn Yeah, Patrick Steward is one of the truly great actors of our time. He's amazing.
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@bkuhn I love the episode where he build in the Fallstaff Shakespeare scene on the holodeck at the start... :)
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@bkuhn You like DS9? Wow. I thought it was a very pale copy of Babylon 5 which is unequaled. The later eps were good, though.
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@bkuhn Not the stories, but the settings was a clear imitation. I just got pissed off by the Cisco/son stuff. Quark was ace though! :)
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@bkuhn Sorry.... Sisko. Damn.... Too much networking geekery.... LOL
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@fabsh,I mean stories in fan community writer's intended B5 imitation. Sisko & Jake was a great story line, IMO. But Odo my favorite one.
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@bkuhn I guess it's personal preference. I always liked stuff like the Klingon Throne Saga. That's why I love RDM, i.e. Battlestar.
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@bkuhn Babylon 5 is very special, though. I mean, 4 pre-scripted seasons? That's never been done before or after.
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@bkuhn Do you know if Neary's talk, referenced in SFLS 0x14, was recorded? It's not available on linked page or on conversationsnetwork.org.
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@clacke, Am pretty sure no one recorded it. I'll ask Dave when next I talk to him. I just looked on his website for slides, but found none.
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@bkuhn instead of blogs, a "public binary bathroom wall" (anonymous posting of encrypted messages) could be useful for anonymity
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@fontana If so, it's because RHT keeps hiring strongly FaiF supporters :)
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@achitnis I also found Standford Uni. iPhone dev classes very useful (available free on iTunes)
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"One woe doth tread upon another's heel,so fast they follow"#Canonical does more proprietary;updated my reasons to leave #ubuntu ur1.ca/jtms
Luis Fernández and R. like this. -
@bkuhn I just read your blog and though I'm not ready to switch myself, I do share your concerns...
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@nocturn Chrome is almost identical to Chromium, which is !freesoftware http://code.google.com/p/chromium/wiki/ChromiumBrowserVsGoogleChrome
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@bma: Thanks, trying it out now
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@bkuhn You fail to see that the proto for U1 server are in the (GPLv3) client code and that Canonical doesn't release half-baked software.
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@bkuhn Also, not having comments proper on your blog makes it very difficult to give you a fair comment, due to the char limit.
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@mtrausch, you could use another status.net instance (e.g., unlimited.status.net) & comment to your hearts content and link to this thread.
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@mtrausch, all software's half baked. Software freedom is about developing in open. It's proprietary until it's liberated. Period.
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@bkuhn: I could. I was just pointing out that you have disabled a useful feature on your Web site. I see no need to go to another instance…
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@bkuhn: … much like you see no need to use the source code that is available to you to solve your gripes—I guess that means we're both lazy.
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@mtrausch,"disabled" is strange word choice;I apologize I haven't time for comment moderation;status.net's where I'm reading comments anyway
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@mtrausch,IMO,140 chars is just right length for useful blog comment anyway;If you've more to say,write your own blog post & I'll link to it
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@bkuhn: If you look at Canonical's software, they release after it has reached a certain level of polish. I see nothing wrong with that.
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@mtrausch, Where have I failed to use source available to me when I have a gripe about some software? Pls document accusations.
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@bkuhn: U1's clients are all free software. From that source, you are able to implement a server, if you have any motive to do so.
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@mtrausch,I think proprietary is wrong; you don't agree in some cases; You're also only documenting past behavior,not promises by Canonical.
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@bkuhn: Okay, so maybe you just omitted it? I don't know what software you're running on your Web site. Apologies for the assumption.
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@mtrausch,and I've encouraged developers to it. I already work avg 12 hrs/day on urgent software freedom issues;Sorry I must sleep sometimes
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@mtrausch, Yeah, my website is 100% static HTML. I just can't spare the time to maintain dynamic content site myself & status.net is there.
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@bkuhn: That's fine. But certainly if you've a logical mind, you see where you are making an incorrect (inconsistent) logical argument.
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@bkuhn: Just because you've not the time or the energy doesn't make it any more or less incorrect. If it were important enough to you…
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@bkuhn: … then you would have done something tangible instead of talk smack, is all I am saying. They even gave the client code so that…
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@bkuhn: … alternate servers could be written without having to work hard to reverse engineer stuff. Seems to me that they're doing…
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@bkuhn: … the right—if not ideal—thing.
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@bkuhn: Ouch! See, that would be what I don't have the time to manage! WordPress saves me a lot of time.
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@mtrausch,Not illogical: ∃ many affronts to software freedom;Sometimes all I've time for is point out problem;Can't fix *every* issue alone!
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@mtrausch,Hacked it together in 1 day & it's worked since;I asked for help making unlimited.status default for comments based on ur feedback
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@bkuhn: Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. Time can only go so far. That's why I have a huge freakin' TODO. :-)
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@bkuhn: If I'd more time to donate I'd prob work on a U1 server reimplementation, but I'm still working out the next stable AllTray release.
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@bkuhn: It is what I do with my time, too. I also consult with small businesses to use/migrate to free software.
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