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With #Canonical pushing more and more proprietary software for !ubuntu, I'm considering switching more and more...
- Tony Yarusso likes this.
- Tony Yarusso repeated this.
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@teddks that's why I select the "Free Software Only" option on the Install CD
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@teddks gNewSense is great, as is Trisquel
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@teddks Was there some substance there, or just idle ranting? Example? Substance? Anything _useful_?
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@teddks Like what?
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@teddks I'm not sure what "proprietary software" you're referring to. Can you amplify this?
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@manish https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats but I will continue supporting my Ubuntu community California and Ecuador
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@ecubuntu How many of them are installed by default? Providing RestrictedFormats to those who ask is not bad. It's personal freedom
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@manish !ubuntu one is non-free, and apparently #canonical is working to get nonfree crap like itunes, instead of promoting !freesoftware
absent likes this. -
@teddks I can agree with you on "Ubuntu One". They won't bring iTunes. It is just in one survey. Nothing else.
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@teddks Ubuntu One is GPLv3 (http://ur1.ca/jx0k). The server side is not
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@teddks What precisely were you referencing? Otherwise, it's just more hot air added to the bunch. e.g., Ubuntu One, which is free software?
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@teddks 40's here today! Whoo-hoo! #setthebarlow
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@teddks Anyway, I suppose you can call whatever you want criticism. It is only useful when coupled with data. You provided none.
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@mtrausch it's hard to source every opinion in 140 characters or less.
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@teddks I'm sorry, what part of GPLv3 isn't free software? You will have to explain that to me.
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@nhaines non-free software cannot coexist with the free world. energy spent making it better actively harms the Free World.
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@manish I don't like the fact that iTunes inclusion is even considered. Non-free software is not the !ubuntu way.
Fabian Rodriguez likes this. -
@teddks No need to be dfnsve. Bkup the claim which you posted for all in group or be nice and don't group tag wasting our time & bandwidth.
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@teddks And for that matter, given the client, a server can be implemented for it. So I fail to see your gripe on U1.
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@teddks What is wrong with freedom of choice? Forcing free sw down ppl's throats is no worse than forcing proprietary sw. Freedom = choice.
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@teddks If you *really* think it is about freedom, and it is known that choice is freedom, then you surely must see how freedom is increased
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@teddks Ubuntu is a distribution. Their job *is* integration. If you want a free version of iTunes, write it.
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@teddks And if you write it, it will likely be packaged (if it works and it doesn't suck). Thereby increasing choice, granting add'l freedom
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@teddks Stallman has hurt free software more lately than Adobe has in the eyes of many ignorant end users I know.
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@teddks Use #Ubuntu then as a way to get ppl to switch to Linux. As they get comfortable, teach them about #FreeSoftware & abt #Debian
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@teddks Those people avoid "free software" now because they see it as something crazy, creepy, “geeky”, whatever. Some will come back…
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@teddks The public-at-large wont see that #FreeSoftware alone works unless we get them to switch to #Linux first ;)
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@teddks That's a false dichotomy, in my opinion. They coexist today. The more people use Free software, the more entrenched it will become.
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@teddks Free Software will overtake non-Free software because it is excellent, despite any other advantages of proprietary software.
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@mtrausch why are you bringing up Stallman? You need to stop being defensive and slinging invalid, aggressive arguments.
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@mtrausch Choice is not at all freedom. Saying that is either naive or malicious. Is a choice of masters not slavery?
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@crashsystems does it matter whether it's GPLv3 or not? It doesn't work with anything else.
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@teddks Either you are really ignorant, or you are intentionally being dense. Which is it? You brought up the notion of "harm to free sw".
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@teddks And you are now attempting to change the topic. All choice is some level of freedom. Maybe not absolute, but that wasn't the point.
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@teddks In any case, as was our last encounter, this one is finished, because you seem to not be able to or not care to use logic.
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@mtrausch You're not alone in that: I feel much the same way.
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@teddks You've been asked several times to be specific, and all you do is repeat the claim. I say you're blowin' smoke. Prove me wrong.
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@teddks You don't think iPod owners should use Linux...? That's a lot of potential users you're blowing off...
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@teddks You probably should switch. You seem pretty unhappy with Ubuntu, for whatever reasons, so unless you just enjoy being unhappy...
Dvd Mrsdn likes this. -
@lefty *shrug*. Many free software devs even won't say they work on free software anymore because of his latest actions. Even icons fall…
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@teddks Let's get realistic: we're talking about Linux distros here, Ted. You're leaving the land of sense at this point.
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@teddks Of course it can: it does today. Your thinking is very black-and-white.
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@mtrausch Have you seen the survey I'm conducting, and the results? Interesting. See http://bit.ly/5PuWNb
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@lefty No, if you read up in the thread, you'll see we're talking about freedom and choice in the abstract.
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@lefty What got me to post that was this survey on ubuntuforums + @bkuhn's reasons for switching: http://ur1.ca/jxv1
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@mtrausch You said "choice is freedom". That is not the case.
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@teddks Choice is but a part of freedom. If you take choice away, what you have left is no capability to exercise freedom.
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@teddks If you wish to continue to have me listen, you are going to actually have to prove your position, as it does not make any sense.
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@nhaines Free software should 'win' because it is free. It very well might not, regardless of how good it is.
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@nhaines They don't coexist. They are in constant struggle.
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@mtrausch People already have. That's why this whole thing seems so kafka-esque to me.
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@teddks Really? Please send link; I'd love to be able to use the store. I wasn't aware anything was available and maintained.
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@mtrausch It's irrelevant what can possibly be done; what matters is what is now.
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@teddks Disregard last dent; I mis-read the context. It is important that the client is open, that is the spec for the server!
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@teddks Fact of the matter is in that case, the protocol is the important piece, not the server side code.
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@mtrausch I'm not convinced that choice is anything more than orthogonal to freedom.
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@bjornw Ubuntu one and this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1381221
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@teddks Explain how freedom is possible without choice, or don't bother wasting more bits.
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@mtrausch Freedom is possible now, but it isn't clear if humans have free will, thus it is possible in a world without choice.
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@teddks Are you intentionally failing to listen? The protocol is published in free software. Therefore, you can write a server easily.
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@teddks If you truly believe in what free software *is* and *does*, then you already know that. If you don't, there is no point in talking!
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@teddks So, what is your real problem? If you want an implementation of U1's server, write it. If you don't, then don't—and stop whining.
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@teddks I'm *not* even going to go there. Let's keep the conversation practical; debating free will is way outside scope here.
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@mtrausch You took the conversation into metaphysics; don't blame me.
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@mtrausch Do you know what I mean when I say "free"? I mean the Franklin Street Statement in this context. You might want to read it.
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@teddks They wrote the code; they do not have to make free every last line of it. They *did* make client in GPL3, giving the protocol away.
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@teddks What do you hope to accomplish by whining loudly? Such wasted energy over such a trivial thing…
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@teddks If you list all the files in the {,python-}ubuntuone-client packages, you will have something to read to get you on your way.
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@mtrausch "they do not have to make free every last line of it"... if they want it to be FREE SOFTWARE, then yes, they _do_. ???
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@mtrausch I don't get where your impression of imposed freedom comes from, but I can guess it comes from advice
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@mtrausch pointing out you're not free if you give up your freedom is hardly imposing anything
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@teddks Where am I attacking you? It is *you* who are attacking Canonical, ironically for exercising *their* freedom.
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@teddks Obviously, they wanted the U1 client to be free software. You are being an extremist. That is not an attack, do not take it as one.
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@lxoliva Forcing something upon someone, even if it is "good for them", is still forcing it on someone. Not a difficult concept.
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@mtrausch Criticism is not an attack. The words "rant", "whining", "extremist", "hot air", "gripe", are attacks meant to silence people.
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@mtrausch You are now contradicting yourself.
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@teddks If you want to have a *serious*, *educated* conversation WRT freedom, please do. And if calling it like it is, is "an attack"…
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@teddks … then I am wasting my time assuming there is intelligence on the other end of the link. Good night.
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@teddks Could you possibly be any more vague? Where is the contradiction? I said client, not server.
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@mtrausch So now I'm dumb because I think you're attacking me? Do you admit that that's an attack?
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@mtrausch ...in that post. You've been asserting throughout this discussion that ubuntu one is free software. Now you admit only part is.
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@teddks No, I said the client is free software, and thus the protocol is also free.
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@teddks You have dodged every question and attempted to shift this convo so many times, it surprises me not you cannot keep it straight.
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@teddks If it is so impt to you to make U1C talk to a free SW server, write it already. I haven't time to shut you up by doing so myself.
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@teddks I did not call you dumb. I did imply that your reasoning capabilities are leaving something to be desired; very different, that.
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@mtrausch "the client" is not "Ubuntu one". Ubuntu one is composed of the client and the server.
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@duck1123 no, but it would be if gwibber was the one providing the proprietary service though.
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@mtrausch I send happy kittens and puppies your way! Kiss kiss!
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@cmsj Indeed, this reminds me of the old "non-free is not Debian" wars.
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@mtrausch I'm not sure how easy that would be. Regardless, it would still be nice if Canonical opted to open source their implementation.
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@teddks No, you're not talking about anything it seems. You're asserting, w/o evidence, that Ubuntu is somehow chock-full of proprietary s/w
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@teddks Have you seen http://is.gd/6nYub ?
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@brucevdk It would be nice, yes. But it is their right to not do so, that was my point.
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@teddks Actually, the protocol is the service. As long as there is a free protocol, multiple implementations are possible.
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@teddks And even in free software, multiple competing implementations are a good thing.
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@teddks If it is not important for me, then why did you spend so much time making it a point that it was? You aren't making sense.
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@teddks *for you, in that last dent. I'm not awake yet.
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@lxoliva Being forced to use free SW is no better than being forced to use proprietary SW; choice (part. informed choice) is true freedom.
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@mtrausch the missing part of your argument is the “being forced to use free SW”. how could anyone? using what power?
Evan Prodromou likes this. -
@lxoliva You're missing a part of the argument alright, but it's not mine. They are saying "choice is bad, Ubuntu should not permit choice".
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@lxoliva Furthermore, the other party insists that being forced to use free software is freedom. However, that is an *obvious* folly.
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@lxoliva (If we are to use logic, and thus use logical arguments, that is.)
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@teddks Aha, thanks for clearing it up. Canonical needs to earn a living as well I guess, sad they 'have' to resort to prop software sales.
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@teddks So what you are talking about then, is the *protocol*, b/c that is what U1 is. There is a big diff. between proto and impl.
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@teddks I am still waiting on that link for the free version of iTunes you said existed. I can't find it on Google, can you help me find it?
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@lefty Quite interesting survey. Thanks for the link.
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@mtrausch Thanks. If you know of any good places to spread the links around, please do so!
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@mtrausch they're typically installed by default on gnu/linux
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@teddks Why don't you use Conduit?
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@lefty You're trying to compare different threads of the conversation.
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@teddks Nope, it just syncs files and data and configs between different things. http://live.gnome.org/Conduit. Nothing to do with !ubuntu1
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@teddks not directly.but migration to Ubuntu for many is dependant upon apps/services like itunes.more ppl switch,more potential u1 revenue
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@teddks not at all. You clearly stated that having itunes on Ubuntu has no financial benefit to canonical. I think you're wrong.
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@teddks I thought you said that it was not an important issue for you. Why then do you still go on about it?
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@teddks If you want a free server that speaks the U1 protocol, make it happen. Continuing to go on about it is not going to accomplish that.
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@teddks Could you answer the question with a concrete answer? I thought you said there was something that could replace iTunes.
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@teddks You do realize that iTunes is more than a media player/manager, right?
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@teddks Then you are very naïve in your understanding of what protocols, services and implementations are—and the separation between them.
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@teddks But why don't you just uninstall it? Ubuntu are a company, they need to create revenue streams to survive. Fedora has Redhat
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@mtrausch You are being intentionally dense. If I cannot change !ubuntu one servers, I do not have autonomy and freedom. !autonomous
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@teddks I am not being dense. You do not understand what you are talking about. Please, spend some time researching and educating yourself.
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@teddks Furthermore, you spoke as if U1's packages were installed under a MS EULA. Do you also demand to use only AGPL Web applications?
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@teddks After re-reading the other posts I gathered that. Maybe the answer is a free respin, freebuntu. Free of all the non-free stuff.
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@teddks you are absolutely correct my friend :) !linux !gnu !freedom is absolute !win
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@teddks You support "Digital Restriction Management"? I'm shocked, shocked!! Sell that iPod and send the money to the FSF immediately.
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@patcito do you drive a car? it probably runs non- !freesoftware. Don't drive? What about ATM machines? I doubt you don't use those?
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@patcito saint in the church of emacs > free software supporter. you can support free software w/o being free (though being free helps!)
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@jargon LOL--I never thought of comparing the two. :-D
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@jargon He's not the nicest or most eloquent spokesman, although I respect his ideas entirely.
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@teddks Fine. I've got better things to do than argue with you over how Ubuntu is oppressing you.
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@lefty That's funny; What's changed between now and when you subscribed to me so you could butt into other discussions I have?
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@teddks Since you insist, I've determined _you're_ determined to be butt-hurt and misinformed. I _had_ given you the benefit of the doubt.
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@lefty If I'm misinformed, why not inform me? Can you not?
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@teddks Part of the freedom guaranteed by open source is the freedom to run any software alongside any other software.
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@hedgemage Open source doesn't make any statements about freedom. You're confusing the open source tactic with the free software movement.
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@teddks When did "free software" stop meaning "free to use any way you like" and start meaning "free to use as you are told" ?
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@hedgemage I don't see what statement of mine you're responding to.
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@teddks dent no. 19290234
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@hedgemage ...your statement is a non-sequitur in relation to that post.
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@teddks You repeatedly espouse the opinion that allowing users to use free and proprietary software together is less free.
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@teddks Letting users do as they please is MORE free, whether you like what they please to do or not.
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@marcosroriz That means I can't switch servers, so I don't have autonomy/freedom. It doesn't matter what COULD be, just what IS. !ubuntu
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@teddks You CAN switch servers. Write one. THAT is the free software way.
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@teddks reverse engineer U1. that's how half of free software was developed anyway, no?
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@tzk I never said it would be necessary, but it is not a thing of evil to ask if people want iTunes or Skype.
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@tzk If asking alone is a problem for you, then you should think about your attitude. Honestly.
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