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@bkuhn In http://ur1.ca/k6x4 you said it's good that Android and Maemo exist; better chance of success. I think that's untrue!
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@bkuhn comm'ty value has network effect; goes up by N². Split comm'ty in half, value = (N/2)² + (N/2)² = N²/2! ½ total value in 2 projects!
Christopher Allan Webber likes this. -
@joshix they teach it in Canadia. New Math of Canadia.
Zach Copley likes this. -
@joshix http://ur1.ca/km1x value of a network goes up with square of number of users (N). Neither complicated nor controversial.
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@joshix what do you disagree with? That FLOSS communities display network effects? That # of ppl interested in a Free smartphone is finite?
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@evan: are you assuming that if one of the two platforms didn't exist, all of its contributors would be working on the other?
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@evan If Metcalfe's law was determinant for all goals involving a network, one could never make the case for any value added by competition.
joshix likes this. -
@segphault Contributors and users. Expect most have common goals: free, cheap, good smartphone. Others not (e.g. work for Google or Nokia).
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@evan: the two platforms have very different underlying communities that don't overlap: Qt/Gtk+ vs. Java. They collaborate on shared kernel.
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@greggish Network effect >> competition. Competition is consolation when you have hopeless scenarios, like Gnome & KDE, GNU/Linux distros.
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@segphault "community" != "committers". Users, vendors, 3rd-party app devs. Most don't care about Qt or Java.
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@evan Hopeless? You don't think that one similar competing project helps push the development of the other? Also, value of choice for users.
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@segphault to chime in here, I agree with you. Most Qt devs wouldn't touch Android with a ten foot pole, and vice versa.
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@evan I think you exaggerate, esp with your math example. While cooperation is good so is competition. Diversification is needed to innovate
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@sandersch Oh, yes. Fragmentation is the biggest issue in mobile apps development
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@evan I disagree with expressing Gilder's heuristic as a faux-quation, & with the fallacy of its naive application to engineering processes.
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@evan, Could be right re: 2 projects w/ same goal hurting success. Various FLOSS DVCS systems is good counterexample. It's hard to know.
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@smaffulli I agree entirely.
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@joshix FLOSS development is not an engineering process; it's a community-organizing process.
Hex and Dave Bonta like this. -
@bkuhn I think that's a good example! Too many choices made it hard for any DVCS to get big enough cmm'ty to be useful. It took LT & Git.
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@jospoortvliet Baloney! That's the fallacy that egoists comfort themselves with while they disrupt communities. Competition doesn't help FS.
Dave Bonta likes this. -
@evan I believe if there had only been Gnome or KDE, it would never have been as good as they both are now. Competition makes quality.
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@brews FF 4.x looks Uber cool to me. And someone said Safari is now faster than Chrome. The wars are heating up, no doubt!
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@brews Tho it would be nice to see Konqueror thrown back into the mix...
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@lcrocker +/- (eg lack of network effect adoption) of competing floss projects varies. not clear to me in case of kde/gnome. ps go lxde! :)
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@frankenspock Damn, just tried it for the new in a setup.exe on a compactor,..
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@lcrocker Competition wastes volunteer resources. Gnome and KDE are as good as they are despite competition, not because of it.
Michele Ann Jenkins and Douglas Wilson like this. -
@evan aye, well said.
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@evan, I view that story differently. I think a lot of communities had to try different DVCS solutions to get comfortable.
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@greggish choice drives away users. If you make people make a choice, they'll give up.
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@evan well maybe competition is not the term to use. But choice. For me the strength of foss is choice.
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@greggish great RadioLab podcast on the dangers of choosing: http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2008/11/14
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@bigbrovar having a lot to choose from could have adverse results.
Evan Prodromou likes this. -
@evan worst episode of SFLS ever (meaning good but usually show is awesome). Didn't learn anything + unfree codec apologia at end.
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@evan I feel you abstracted just a notch too high. s/users/end users/
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@bkuhn I think that we have (had!) lots of half-baked DVCS's based on silly differences. "This one's written in Python!"
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@evan tiny bit subtlety re maemo v android net effect. maemo++ dt sharing w/desktop stack. sadly android mass mkt prob vastly more important
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@mlinksva fair point; they do participate, tenuously, in a larger community.
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Kinda like asking users to choose between the t-word and status.net, @evan? To most users, the data & code licenses are irrelevant.
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@jasonriedy absolutely! I completely agree.
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So why, @evan, did you start status.net rather than contribute to the t-word somehow? The competition must be bad, right?
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@jasonriedy well, they don't exactly let you contribute.
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@jasonriedy you're conflating competition between two FLOSS projects and competition between a FLOSS project and a proprietary one.
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The community of apps, @teferi. That's what users see. The apps extend&use the t-world.
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No, @evan, I'm conflating the competition between two projects serving the same userbase. Competition here is good.
joshix likes this. -
And both put pressure on the other, @bkuhn, leading to better pack formats, etc. Internal compat. can limit exploration.
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@evan That would be easier to believe if more resources implied a better product.
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@mlinksva,apologia only in traditional greek meeting (defense). I don't think patent-encumbering == proprietary. Sorry you didn't like show
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@lcrocker C'mon! You've gotta be kidding me.
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@bkuhn i liked it, but have high expectations of loving SFLS episodes. wished for deep dive on freedom legal issues & mobile.
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@bkuhn ps next show (fontana redux) is fantastic, i'm still a big fan. :)
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@bigbrovar Strength of FOSS is collaboration. Choice, competition, etc. are all seconddary and a side effect of freedom.
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@bkuhn ps what other meaning does apologia have? imo sounded like attempt to avoid sayng offering mp3 pragmatic led to twisty moral arg.
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@evan @lxrocker he's right, evan. You must also know throwing twice as many programmers on a project certainly doesn't make it twice as good
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@evan it's both. We have scalability issues just like any other engineering project - we're just better at handling it.
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@jospoortvliet If a FLOSS project was just about programmers, that'd be true. But it's not: it's about users. More users => Better software.
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@evan Small teams often outperform huge ones; also, work isn't "wasted" if it's replaced by something better if it helped show the way.
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@evan I thought the speciality of FLOSS was that the line between "user" and "developer" is blurred. But yeah, that culture is fading :-(
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@mlinksva,I never felt encumbered formats rw-able w/ 100% FLOSS == using proprietary software. What about countries w/out those patents?
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@kamathln very true
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@evan *That* I definitely agree with.
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@bkuhn do you feel same about nonfree software & jurisdictons w/o (c) enforcement?
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@bigbrovar Choice is important in early stages, as things mature, standardization will be key. take dbus vs dcop
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@kamathln you can have standardization and multiple choice are not exclusive of one another. But yeah Linux really needs standardization
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@evan No, getting elected prom king is a "community-organizing process". Software *is* engineering. It's not anything else.
Andy C likes this. -
@evan Moreover, rather than answer a request to show your work for a claimed equation, you've enunciated a popular article of faith.
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@joshix C'mon, you're both right: FLOSS is a dessert topping AND a floor wax!
Ed Fonseca and joshix like this. -
@evan An article which flies in the face of the work of Turing, Von Neumann, and Brooks, and which has yet produced only 2nd-hand replicas.
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@evan Lastly, in the larger context you seem to rate the intelligence of the individual rational actor even lower than I do.
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@joshix Engineering is the least important part of a FLOSS project!
Hex likes this. -
@joshix I have never seen a man more hostile with someone far righter than himself than you have been today. You demean us both.
Dvd Mrsdn likes this. -
@evan Clearly you're not familiar with his work...
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@evan I believe this is the point where you show how generous you are by accepting his apology!
Evan Prodromou likes this. -
@spacehobo Or challenges him to a duel with pistols. I always forget how this "netiquette" stuff works.
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@mlinksva, we feared "deep dive" on mobile legal issues might bore some, plus the FCC/Wireless stuff is relevant & previously covered.
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@evan That is a statement of religious belief, adorned not with evidence, but with an exclamation point. At least it explains the quality.
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@evan "You're not nice!" is not an argument that sways me. You're professionally friendly. I don't have to be.
Susan Pinochet likes this. -
@joshix oh snap
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@joshix that's fine. I'm just a little tired.
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@frankenspock I thought it was a teeth cleaning device and a form of lingerie?
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@evan: is it possible to put all the stylesheets for !identica on the @identica site rather than #statusnet? my work filters status.net
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@eightyeight it does!?
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@evan: although, oddly enough, !identica comes thtrough fine. i guess they haven't updated their db to filter that out yet #knockonwood
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@evan: anyway, just a thought
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@evan uncomplicated, uncontroversial, and, frequently, untrue (as applied). it assumes uniform endpoint value, ignores affinity groups, &c.
joshix likes this. -
@evan If only that was true for non-FLOSS too. I won't name any names, we probably all have examples :)
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@arc don't forget darcs, tla, monotone. There are way too many DVCS's.
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0u likes this.
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@evan <3 darcs (except the infinite wait times)
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@joshix software is NOTHING BUT engineering- regardless of tone or caps,is also more religious than empirical.most things are many things.
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to me 'software' is a form of expression. it's often useful. i set about it like writing a story as much as i would building a house.
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@openuniverse True enough. I am given to rhetorical excess. In short form, I defy the new communism. Engineering is not emergent.
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@evan why do i suspect that equation is more relevant to things that can be "owned" and controlled top-down rather than modified/copied?
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@joshix free software isn't in any way shape or form communism, and neither is science. both require information to be shareable to exist.
joshix likes this. -
@openuniverse totally not! Network effect is about providing value to each other through participation.
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