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Ivanka Majic (Canonical Design Team Lead) responds to comments about button placement in #ubuntu #lucid http://bit.ly/dhi50w
Wednesday, 10-Mar-10 11:16:15 UTC from twirssi-
@popey He isn't saying anything, actually. He sure doesn't explain the reasoning well.
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@fabsh s/he/she. She's asking for feedback, which is a good thing :)
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@popey Sorry for the gender mixup. I have given some feedback now. :)
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@fabsh Is the feedback "It's CRAP!" *honk* *honk* *honk* ? :)
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@popey No. It's "this change only makes sense if you move to the Mac global menu too and *that* would be crap."
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@popey But, essentially yes. Bad decision. Looks like a copycat move and feels like an Apple thing: do stupid things just to be diffrent.
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@popey Or was that differently? ;)
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@fabsh I must be the only person alive who don't mind the OSX global menu. *shrug*
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@popey Many people like it. They mostly use Macs. I have no idea why... I used it on a 27" iMac recently. That was physically painful!
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@popey I like the idea of it. But I don't think it is the way to do it. I use gnome-globalmenu sometimes. But I hate it sometimes.
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@popey Thanks for the link! Love her blog. :-)
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@yamanickill my £0.02: I like globalmenu it makes finding menu's so much easier because the bar is infinity large.
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@silner I've gotten more attached to the theme the more I've used it. (The orange frame highlight on focused is brilliant!)
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@yamanickill but for the same reason an omnipresent bar at the top makes the close button much harder to find on maximised windows.
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@yamanickill Are we actually using the global menu? Maybe for the netbook remix only?
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@silner You are puzzled? Just think about how many times a day you use these buttons! There is a reason stuff like that isn't changed.
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@silner I mean car manufacturers don't go around swapping the side of the ignition or all the keys on the steering wheel. Ever.
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@yamanickill which tends not to be a problem on a Mac because they're used with huge screens, so you tend not to maximize stuff.
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@fabsh Unless you drive a Saab and the ignition is in the centre console! :) (though, I do agree with you about the buttons!)
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@brews I'm actually using it on my desktop. I put it on every so often and take it off and put it on again. I can't decide whether I like it
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@yamatt The problem is that it takes ages to go to the menu on a 27" screen when the window you are using is at the bottom. It's bad design.
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@yamatt Yeah. It does make it a bit weird, I just like the idea of not wasting space. I love maximising space. So I get rid of stuff.
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@narrf Renault did that too when they got rid of keys. They will keep it there for years now, though.
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@fabsh keyboard shortcuts. Menus are for girlies anyway. Men use shells.
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@fabsh Yeah, I agree. The idea is great. Only having 1 menu. But the design and implementation is rubbish...not sure how to fix it though.
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@yamanickill: Well, they say that variety is the spice of life...
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@brews Really? Who says that??? :-P
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@fabsh: Yeah, I suppose changing something you know is't the same as using something new. In the former you don't expect to have to relearn.
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@fabsh: Well I have to admit, when I swapped a door around recently, I spent weeks trying to put the key through the window :)
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@fabsh: But all that will have to wait till I resolve the Xorg, or maybe Plymouth, issue that's stopping me getting a desktop.
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@jwildeboer Yeah. That's the right attitude for UI design people.... ;)
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@fabsh It would be exciting if they did do that actually. Lets make a car with the pedals the wrong way round. Would be fun.
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@yamanickill No. I am saying the idea is bonkers in the first place.
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@jwildeboer So you are going on that feminism wiki soon then :-P can't remember what it is called.
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@yamanickill Like the iPhone homescreen: You can use it. But it's not particularly USEABLE.
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@silner Changing something without a clearly defined benefit is stupid. And I feel this is what the Ubuntu design guys (and gals) did.
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@silner Either that or they suck at communicating why they did it. Which wouldn't be the first time either...
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@jwildeboer then stand your ground!!!
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@silner It's not only muscle memory. It's also that the change has no tangible benefits beyond "brand".
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@fabsh Yeah, the iphone homescreen is just so horrible. Did you hear about their patent for "Contact on the homescreen".
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@fabsh It's not often we agree on things :-P
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@yamanickill Yep. Just in case of a car people would get killed. Which is why these people think about it more... ;)
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@fabsh It's possible Ubuntu made the change just to get publicity. That's their style. I think it's more likely just bone-headedness.
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@yamanickill Yeah. How about "patent on a system to move icons that doesn't suck", Steve? ;)
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@yamanickill Meh. I rather have spice in my food.
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@fabsh Mmmmm I want a curry now.
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@gomerx I think it's Mark. He seems fascinated with the Mac and now that he's concentrating on "the brand" instead of being CEO...
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@fabsh: Aye, but there was no benefit to having it the original way (aside from it looking like Win XP).
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@brews The benefit is that it's a system that has proven to work on millions of computers for nearly two decades now!
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@brews If 95% of all computers on the planet use system A, you need a DAMN GOOD reason to move to system B, don't you think?
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@fabsh: Your not going to move to system B because the "close" button is in the same place on the windows.
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@fabsh Fitts' law is the reason for the change, but even Apple doesn't follow it. If they did, the menu would be in the lower right.
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@brews That response doesn't make sense to me.
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@gomerx I don't know this Fitts and I don't care for his laws either. It's stupid, even a blind pig could see that!
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@fabsh Blind pigs don't do HIG testing. :) It's a strong argument though, that changing something people already know has a great cost.
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@fabsh agreed, it looks to me like Ivanka was looking for feedback, when I think she should have explained the decision.
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@gomerx Especially when you are changing to something that is obviously a bad idea...
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@yamatt Maybe they will revert it. That would be good.
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@fabsh: Win XP People arn't going to say: "I'm moving to Ubuntu because their windows have the same 'close' button."
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@brews People become attached to the weirdest things in an operating system.
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@fabsh If they revert it, they still get all the publicity and come off looking warm, fuzzy and customer friendly.
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@larue: maybe... I happen to be a fan of Bash on my systems :-)
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@brews I am in love with all things CLI as well
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@narrf Tried to start a friends' Saab once in the dark while drunk (I was just starting, not driving) never could find the ignition :)
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@brews Nope. But they'll be pissed off about a change that makes no sense to them...
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@gomerx Maybe. Not from me though.
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@brews What's the rook uptight upended upset uphisass about now? He's in the business of having capital-O-pinions, you know.
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@michaelsandahl My FVWM setup puts the close button on the left, which I like once I got used to it. Can't say it's easier for everyone.
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@michaelsandahl Yeah, the GConf thing was stupid as well...
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@gomerx It all comes down to what you are used to using. Macs are a pain in the ass for me to use, because I grew up on Windows
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@michaelsandahl That's the point. HIG studies (like Fitts' law) produce the best interface if you don't already know something else.
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@gomerx Maybe !ubuntu should change the name of their desktop environment to FVWM. F*cking Violet Window Manager ;)
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@joshix The placement of the 'close', 'maximize' & 'minimize' buttons on windows.
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@brews Sorry to but in, but are people still going on about that :P
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@nperry Wow! I just went out for coffee... was listening to the CBC... had some cornflakes. Must be a slow news day. :-)
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@michaelsandahl hehe :) Having had my Saab for a while, when I drive my wives car, I regulary try to stick the key in the cigar lighter! :)
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@nperry nvm, looks like its all done.
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@fabsh He does have that strange Mac fetish, always comparing. A purple desktop & button switching sure as fsck isn't an answer to anything.
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@mjjzf I agree. :(
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@mjjzf Maybe. Maybe they should concentrate on fixing the fucking audio stack!
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