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@thezub Whatever you say. Enjoy your day.
Friday, 25-Jun-10 15:12:42 UTC from web-
A welcome article on positive campaigning by FSFE: http://bit.ly/aAifRc
Thomas Gideon likes this. -
@webmink The FSF-E is _terrific_, and the contrast with the FSF is, frankly, shocking. I'm an FSF-E Fellow, and I'll definitely renew.
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@webmink instead of pushing for FS to dismiss essence and become OSS, how about you work on the opposite, that you allegedly set out to do?
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@lxoliva Doing that, yup.
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@lxoliva Go on, smack me around for impurity and heresy. You know you want to :-)
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@webmink FS cares about stuff OSS doesn't. calling for unity by telling FS to not care about its essense is disrespectful
drew Roberts likes this. -
@lxoliva Where exactly did I do that? I am calling for people to stop attacking their co-campaigners over well-understood differences.
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@webmink I dispute the notion of co-campaigners (different goals), and I dispute that the differences are well understood but by a few of us
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@webmink asking FS to not present its case would pave the way for the much weaker OSS philosophy to be further bent and weakened
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@lxoliva That's very sad, Alexandre, and I believe it diminishes the authority with which you speak.
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@lxoliva ...and/or ignorant ...and/or dishonest!
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@lxoliva A word comes to mind (which, unfortunately, will only make sense to those brought up on a diet of UK comedy): "Splitters".
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@lxoliva The sooner we accept that Free Software and Open Source are different labels for the same thing, the better.
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@dneary the better for whom? if they're labels for the same, how come OSS had to fork off and now asks for silence on the diffs?!?
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@lxoliva i've been meaning, actually, to complain to the catholic church that they don't have enough "u…
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@dneary To me, more than labels, they're two PoVs over the same thing. Sadly, some advocates from both sides are trigger happy.
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@dneary More sadly even, some rare few appear to enjoy triggering reactions, the more violent the better, on others.
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@ruiseabra Labels, perspectives, whatever. It's the same thing. The enemy of FS is not OS, it's proprietary software.
Simon Phipps likes this. -
@dneary a few years back, a right-wing portuguese MP described free software with the FSF definition as explained practicalities w/ OSS def.
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@dneary This "enemy" language is _decidedly_ not helpful. An "enemy" will be construed of as being incapable of doing _anything_ good.
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@lxoliva Because the diffs are mostly important to us. See http://is.gd/cRxZx for why, and how we should communicate freedom.
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@dneary Proprietary software might be described as the converse of free software, but that doesn't make it an "enemy". Things go awry here.
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@dneary This ignores the fact that there is, in many instances, an implicit political view which "free software" entails.
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@lefty Allow me to rectify: The enemy of FS is not OS, it's people who hate FS for what it is. (Incidentally, many proprietary vendors)
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@lxoliva No one's asking that they not "present their case". Just that they not attack others with similar goals in the guise of doing so.
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@lefty The point of the People's Liberation Front of Judaea sketch is that _all_ the "splitters" are on the same side, against the Romans.
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@lxoliva well, if OSS does care, it thinks it is advantageous to hide the fact.
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@dneary Here's _my_ takeaway: once you define an "enemy", someone who disagrees with you about that "enemy" becomes your "enemy", too.
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@dneary, IMO each should use term they feel is right. For my part, I say "software freedom" & explain why. I often say FLOSS to be inclusive
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@dneary,I agree: I don't see "open source" as an enemy of software freedom. But I also think it's primarily a business term,not activist one
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@bkuhn nods. OS is nobody's enemy, it's friendly to everyone, though often more friendly to PS than to FS: PS's best friend against FS
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@bkuhn: I know no one wants to hear this, but I often use OS in writing simply due to the competing meanings of Free - esp. w/"outsiders"
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@lxoliva, "open source" isn't as bad as you say. "OS" fits a for-profit way of thinking & is neutral on morality of proprietary,not friendly
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@n8,"Open source" suffers from similar confusion: having source is necessary but not sufficient for freedom. Why not say "software freedom"?
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@bkuhn maybe there's a divide in OSS, but I've seen many a self-proclaimed OSSer fighting *for* use and distribution of PS
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@bkuhn those who don't, I regard as mistaken FS activists who will eventually realize they're FS rather than OSS ;-)
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@lxoliva, I try to get sense of what *most* ppl who identify as "Open Source" advocates believe. I think you're describing small minority.
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@bkuhn you saying most of OSSers fight against PS? I find that hard to believe :-( see e.g. Debian elections, recent poll, Ubuntuers...
Osama Khalid likes this. -
@bkuhn I dislike "open source" more than nfsw; it wastes energy replacing one problrm with another.
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@bkuhn: agree OS still has ambiguity, but as a matter of degree. FS, to some people, still equates with freeware which is utterly orthogonal
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@bkuhn most of which are wrong, but people forget that as humans, they're entitled to be wrong... (no one's perfect)
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@bkuhn: note I'm not saying i like it, just that if I had a time machine I might visit RMS in 83 and try to persuade him to coin a diff term
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@bkuhn: FaiF beats FLOSS, that's for sure
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@teddks So then, if they're not going to collaborate _your_ way, you'd prefer that people not collaborate at all...?
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@teddks,most who say "open source" often help advance software freedom; they just have a word-choice preference that I'd say is #problematic
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@bkuhn or lazy ;-) english is an annoying language for the word "free"
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@bkuhn i would say almost as many who say "open source" just help advance software- full stop. if it's …
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@bkuhn I like the name "free software", but fail to see the problem with "open source". it is true that the source code is open.
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@bkuhn that many OSSers help advance software freedom today is true; that their goal is SF and end to PS is the question
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@thezub, don't confuse the loudest for the majority in "Open Source". Consider @webmink (new OSI Director) recent comments: ur1.ca/07j3f
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@bkuhn dude! we're just having this conversation here *because* of poisoning attacks!
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@jyeary hahahahahahaha
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@lefty IABT, but not everyone who shares your goals is a comrade. That's obvious. OS people are working towards a society I don't want.
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@lefty don't you use MS access? Seems like you have a problem with !freesoftware.
Osama Khalid likes this. -
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@teddks No, I don't use MS Access, Ted. I use MySQL, and SQLite. Is this the best you can do? "Ooh, I bet you use a MS product! Ooh! Ooh!"
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@teddks RMS wants to unilaterally "readjust the expectations" of an entire profession down to making a "mere living". What's that called?
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@osamak No, "we" as in me and my two cats. I'd stay clear of the cats, they're not as polite as I am.
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@dneary So, who's the "enemy" of open source software? Looks like the "free software movement" based on this thread.
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@bkuhn Since many of us are in business, and not activists, that seems reasonable to me. Should I be joining FSF's crusade to lower my pay?
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@thezub But it's okay when RMS calls Miguel a "traitor"....?
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@bkuhn Given RMS publicly accuses Torvalds of "stealing credit" regularly, is there some reason Linus would be "positive" about the FSF?
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@lefty I have to impression that some ppl just belief RMS is sacrosanct.
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@lefty I have *the* impression ...
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@ovidius I have the sense that some people think "Saint IGNUcius" is an actual saint. Church of EMACS fundamentalists. Without the "fun".
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@lefty FSF != RMS. Linus can rant about RMS, just as RMS can rant about Linus. But generalising that to all FSF is not correct.
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Of course, RMS is the Ree Moftware Soundation.
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@jwildeboer How can you _tell_ that (or _when_) RMS != FSF. I can't, and he never says. He's the President, he speaks for the organization.
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@jwildeboer Are you saying that "GNU/Linux" is only RMS' position, not the FSF's....? I don't believe that's true. The essay's on fsf.org.
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@lefty Well - I am a founding member of http://www.stallmanism.com/ :-)
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@jwildeboer :D LOL.
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@lefty Is Jim Whitehurst Red Hat? Is Obama the United States?
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@dneary I don't think there's actually any profit in that (rhetorical) question. My point is that I only hear one group using "enemy" talk.
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@lefty I only say that FSF is more then just RMS.
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@jwildeboer "I wouldn't belong to any club that would have someone like me for a member."~Groucho Marx
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@jwildeboer: and the !FSFE, is it Karsten Gerloff, Georg Greve or Richard Stallman?
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@lefty I didn't ask about his opinion, I asked about your wording.
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@bkuhn Maybe because, thanks to FSF "enforcement actions" and rhetoric, "software freedom" has negative connotations for many businesses.
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@jwildeboer you say that but all the webmasters are afraid to change _anything_ without consulting RMS. (cc: @lefty)
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@osamak I'm a software freedom advocate.
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@reality Honestly, I hear this all the time, and I seriously have no idea how anyone could tell when RMS speaks for FSF, versus for RMS.
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@jwildeboer Well, there are other members, but I believe any statement RMS makes is authoritative w/ respect to the FSF. He never qualifies.
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@jwildeboer He never, for example, says, "This is my personal opinion, and not the FSF's". I assume he's _always_ speaking for the FSF.
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@webmink Evidently, that's _your_ story. =/ What were you saying about the People's Front for the Liberation of Judea again...?
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@lefty I am an FSFE Fellow and an OSI Director. Software Freedom describes the motivations of both very well.
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@jwildeboer When Obama makes a statement, if he doesn't qualify it, he is _speaking for_ the United States. That's what I'm talking about.
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@jwildeboer Did you suppose I was claiming that RMS was the only member of the FSF...?
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@lxoliva Heh. "The enemy of my enemy is _also_ my enemy", eh?
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@rms is busy posting links *poke*
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@reality: Tickets referred to rms concern his articles & philosophy. Others are handled directly. Please don't misrepresent the webmasters.
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@robmyers I didn't, all of the writings concerning the FSFs policies/philosophies etc are referred to RMS.
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@webmink And I'm an FSF-E Fellow as well. I'm not "against software freedom". I don't like being told what to do, however.
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@jwildeboer I shouldn't have to ask. If the President of an organization speaks publicly, w/o qualification, I assume he speaks for the org.
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@jwildeboer And I'm not "assuming" anything, other than that he's the President of the FSF, and thus, its chief spokesperson.
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@reality: Sure, but that's not what you said. You said "everything" is run by rms because the webmasters are "afraid", which isn't true.
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@jwildeboer If Linus had a rant about RMS published on linux-foundation.org, that would look like an LF position. "On fsf.org" == "FSF".
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@lefty so when you talk here - what are you? ACCESS advocate? GNOME Advisory board? This is public ...
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@jwildeboer I sure hope that guy doesn't speak for Gnome.... :/
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@robmyers No, I meant to communicate that all the opinions portrayed on the site are under his control. 'Afraid' was a bad choice, yes.
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@lefty na disagree with that. Even if you're a public person you should be able to speak privately, unless you're introduced as spokesperson
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@lefty I must add that that would be my ideal world, in reality you always have to be careful with such things and be smart about it...
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@dneary agreed!
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@teddks Yes: my _employer_ uses Exchange, and thus, so am I. Should I resign my job in protest?
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@jwildeboer I clearly say, always, that I'm speaking for myself. When I speak for ACCESS, I say so. If I don't say otherwise, I'm just me.
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@teddks Oh? You were the one who brought up "comrades". Sounds to me like Stallman must be, if he wants to _force_ lower pay for devs.
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@bkuhn If "open source" is "not as bad as he says", why is there a diatribe against it on the FSF site....?
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@jwildeboer OK: given that the President of the FSF is hostile toward Torvalds, is there any reason Linus should be positive toward the FSF?
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@jospoortvliet In reality, it doesn't work that way. I'm only an ACCESS spokesperson for specific areas. Stallman is _always_ FSF President.
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@jospoortvliet If you're speaking publicly, you have to be very clear on the context in which you're speaking. I am. Stallman never is.
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@thezub The irony of suggesting that I'm posting "flame-bait", right next to a Sam Varghese article, is excruciating.
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@teddks Okay. Thanks for confirming my suspicion that you're not worth paying the slightest bit of attention. Good to know.
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@webmink your work's very appreciated. It's just that he said that OS guys are anti-FS-people which, obviously, doesn't represent your party
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@thezub I don't see it as justifying that kind of language and divisiveness in the slightest. Don't like Codeplex? Don't participate.
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@thezub Well, if you ignore all the people who were present and agreed that's indeed what he said, anyway.
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@thezub As I heard it, RMS booted Miguel off the FSF board for saying he thought pushing people to call it "GNU/Linux" was a stupid idea.
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@thezub I have no reason to dispute him, and it sounds in character for RMS. You have some reason to think that's not the case?
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@thezub He's certainly known for refusing to let people complete sentences unless they capitulate and say "GNU/Linux" rather that "Linux".
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@thezub It relates to RMS' motivation for calling Miguel a "traitor". That's where we got started on this.
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@thezub I might suggest that you seem predisposed to have concerns about Miguel. Do you know him? Have you spoken with him? I have.
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@thezub If you "don't know either way", then you should equally discount both Miguel's story _and_ RMS' characterization. Problem solved.
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@thezub Is this "angle" in dispute....? I'd say correcting people's "enunciation" and terminology in mid-question qualifies.
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@thezub Well, given the circumstances, it's not hard to see why he wouldn't publicize it. Most agree with Miquel that "GNU/Linux" is silly.
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