Conversation
Notices
-
@lxoliva apple controls your computer while it is running a linux kernel huh?
-
@lxoliva The OS X kernel is open source code. How does Apple "control" it? Go "control" it yourself, if you've got the chops.
-
@lefty well, presenting the case that non-FS is unethical and anti-social, that accepting it weakens us all, is an attack: a counter-attack
-
@lefty promoting Free Software falls short of promoting Software Freedom, which also requires eliminating non-Free Software
Ted Smith likes this. -
@lxoliva So, why doesn't the FSF begin by turning back the funding it gets from its "unethical" and "antisocial" corporate patrons?
-
@lefty that you can obtain that kernel as FS doesn't imply the copy you get as part of OS X is FS, or that you get the 4 freedoms over it
-
@lxoliva "Software freedom" _requires_ the _elimination_ of "non-free software"? Wow. Wow twice.
-
@lefty can you name any reason why it should?
-
@lefty as long as you're dependent on any piece of non-Free Software, you don't have software freedom
-
@lefty as long as there are slaves to software, we haven't reached software freedom
-
@lxoliva No, There's no reason why "software freedom" should require the elimination of "non-free software".
-
@lxoliva i would say "as long as they don't have control of their own software/computers" - at least most of the time
-
@lxoliva Your "freedom" seems to involve a large component of "telling others what to do, whether they like it or not".
-
@lxoliva And you never will. You'll be part of an ever-dwindling-in-importance model railroad club. Back to your roots, as it were.
-
@lxoliva don't feed the troll
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@lefty my freedom involves the notion that one's freedom ends where others' begin. denying others essential freedoms is not a freedom
-
@teddks nods
-
@lxoliva yeah sorry I misunderstood, I thought you said with their hardware. I can build xnu and run instead of apples. Darwin is oss too.
-
@lxoliva So, your "freedom" involves denying me my ability to use Final Cut Pro, so as to protect me from myself? Is that right?
-
@lefty nope, it involves *our* demanding your freedom from that who denies you what you're entitled to
-
@teddks Keep your two cents to yourself. Don't like the discussion, Ted? Stay the hell out of it.
-
@lxoliva So, you're demanding that Apple deprive me of my copy of Final Cut Pro, unless/until they're willing to provide it on _your_ terms.
-
@lefty I hope you'd help us get there, and that might involve resisting the temptation of ceding freedom for the illusion of comfort
-
@lxoliva Exactly how does my arrangements with Apple become _your_ business, anyway?
-
@lefty you're using that argument again. What company that's mainly built on unethical s/w sponsored FSF? (it'd be great, but didn't happen)
-
@lxoliva Help you get _where_? To a point where an industry which has employed me for three decades goes "free"? No thanks.
-
@lefty same way as I breathe the atmosphere that your car pollutes
-
@lefty ideally yes. Who really NEEDS proprietary SW? Issue is how to achieve it w/o big damage. Hard concept to condense in 140chars
-
@lefty I mean, except for want of an equally viable FaiF solution.
-
@lefty you think ethical, freedom-respecting business is impossible? I'm paid to develop Free Software by a profitable FLOSS business
-
@osamak IBM. HP. Google. Intel. Nokia. Oracle. Barracuda. NEC. All of them make substantial income from proprietary software.
-
@lxoliva No, I don't think that at all. But _you_ seem to think that running a proprietary software business should be illegal.
-
@lxoliva don't you think equating software licensing to being enslaved diminishes the meaning of slavery? I have a choice what code I run.
-
@carlopiana: do you use a washing machine?
-
@carlopiana I didn't say that anyone _needed_ it. No one _needs_ "proprietary food", either, there are alternatives. It's a fact of life.
-
@carlopiana I'm saying that the end-user can make a choice as to business model, if they care to, when choices are available.
-
@lefty I do, indeed. society establishes laws so as to discourage people from denying others their essential rights
Ted Smith likes this. -
@carlopiana It seems @lxoliva wants to completely eliminate "non-free software". I believe an author can dispose of his work as he likes.
-
@eeefak I didn't equate it. I do think it's a legitimate comparison, given how dependent on software some people are
-
@lxoliva There's no essential "right" to source code in the US Constitution. Your calling it a "right" doesn't make it one.
-
@lxoliva Again, if you think the "non-free software" should be eliminated, get the FSF to refuse funding from companies that make any.
-
@lefty 1. why should I care about what the US constitution says? 2. aren't privacy, freedom, pursuit of happiness essential rights?
-
@lxoliva I don't think they're in the same ballpark. I can choose to put down proprietary code and write my own. No choice with slavery
-
@lxoliva Calling "acceding to our demands" "freedom" doesn't make it so, either, for that matter.
-
@lefty that's a nonsensical argument, you know... why should the FSF reject any donations whatsoever?
-
@lxoliva You have no more "right" to "free software" than you do to "free copies of Stephen King's books".
-
@eeefak as long as your data isn't stored by the non-Free code in secret formats, you mean
-
@flameeyes yes, and it should be working right now @ home ;-) Not sure where you're aiming at
-
@lxoliva Do drug addiction education organizations take funding from heroin dealers? No. Because it would be _hypocritical_, that's why.
-
@lefty my right is to reject copies that would prevent me from behaving ethically and morally
-
@carlopiana do you have the sources of its firmware? :) — I'm not to say I'm happy about it, but I try to focus where it makes sense to
-
@lefty I agree it would be hypocritical for heroin dealers to make such contributions. but why reject even anonymous donations?
Osama Khalid likes this. -
@lxoliva No one's talking about _your_ right to do what you like. We're talking about your non-existent "right" to tell _me_ what to do.
-
@lxoliva if you choose to put yourself in that position with software locking you in, that is your fault. I have no sympathy for stupidity
-
@lefty you seem to be confused. am I telling you what to do? where? how? is asking for your help telling you what to do?
-
@lxoliva These aren't "anonymous". They're from companies that rake in _millions_ from "unethical", "antisocial" proprietary software.
-
@lxoliva maybe he's (deliberately?) confusing it with campaigns for political office
-
@lxoliva You're demanding that Apple either make Final Cut "free" or stop providing it. Did you forget? "Eliminating all non-free software"?
-
@lefty if they donated it anonymously, would that somehow make the donation acceptable? per your reasoning, FSF ought to reject them
-
@lxoliva You're "asking for my help" is doing something that I think it wrong. Why would I want to help you put me out of a job...?
-
@lxoliva if someone wants to use say windows then so be it, it is their choice. I know it is inferior and therefore choose to not use it.
-
@lxoliva You're making no sense. The FSF advertises on its own site: it's underwritten by "unethical", "antisocial" proprietary software.
-
@eeefak it's not possible to make informed choices without information. that's why I spend so much time informing and educating
Osama Khalid likes this. -
@carlopiana and the moment there'll be a washing machine advertising free, hackable software I'd use it. Until then, anyone will do...
-
@lxoliva A heroin dealer might have a good reason for making such a donation if he thought the organization might look the other way.
-
@eeefak that's often mistaken as attacks on users' freedom, but it's really a counter-attack on those who attack it
-
@lxoliva It would be hypocritical for the organization campaigning _against_ drugs to accept it. How's the FSF different?
-
@lxoliva that is life though, people do stupid shit all the time. I have no right to tell someone they are immoral because they use windows
-
@lefty your assessment doesn't make sense to me. you're not bringing any new arguments to change my mind
-
@lxoliva That's because you've staked out your position and you're unwilling to examine or make actual sense of it. That's your lookout.
-
@eeefak I agree. but we do have a right to tell MS that it's unethical for abusing users who choose (or are imposed) windows
-
@lefty But all of these have very large legitimate activities that depend on free software and/or selling hardware. They are not 'evil'.
-
@lxoliva Starting from an axiom of "all non-free software is evil", that's not too surprising, actually. It's the inconsistencies, though...
-
@lefty until you explain how an anonymous donation from the same drug dealer would be ok, I stand by my stance
-
@osamak Sure they are. Proprietary software is the "enemy" of free software. RMS and the FSF said so.
-
@lxoliva it is counter productive to lecture ppl on morality. We need to point out benefits, not just attack as the fsf choose to do
-
@osamak In terms of "consistency with the FSF's previous statements"? Yes, I see an _enormous_ problem.
-
@osamak do apple and microsoft donate to fsf?
-
@eeefak saying the fsf just attacks is an attack on the fsf, and it's also false. whether or not you're lying or mistaken, I can't tell
-
@lefty it is. there is no conflict with what I just said.
-
@lxoliva If it's truly anonymous, you have no way of knowing where it came from. No reason to reject it.
-
@lefty what statement?
-
@carlopiana: proprietary SW can be useful in niche SW where the amount of users is low and prop SW is useful for distr of dev investment
-
@lxoliva If, however, you _know_ it's from a dealer who only asks that he remain anonymous, accepting it would be hypocritical & dishonest.
-
@carlopiana: prop sw is not useful in mass software, such as operating systems
-
@lefty per your argument, all anonymous donations should be rejected, for they could be from a hypocritical donor
-
@osamak Sure there is. Either they're your "enemy" or they're not. Does NATO take funding from Al Qaeda?
-
@maronenbaum Microsoft Matching Program gave FSF like $5000. It's not official so I cannot say that they did.
-
@osamak Statements that Apple was "the nastiest company around" and Microsoft was "the sworn enemy of the free software movement".
-
@carlopiana By the same token, "Who really needs _free_ software?" (in their camera, washing machine, toaster, etc...)
-
@lxoliva and any donation made by such hypocritical donors is used against them by the !fsf in a true Faustian way :)
-
@lefty Google/IBM/Nokia/etc are not the enemy here. Some activities some of them do are nasty, others are perfectly good.
-
@lxoliva No, as I've just said, that would be paranoid. These aren't "anonymous" donations to the FSF we're talking about, either.
-
@osamak Either proprietary software is "the enemy", or it's not; if these companies do proprietary software—as they do—then they're traitors
-
@osamak Taking money from companies whose actitivities you decry is simply hypocritical. Refuse all funding till those outfits are _free_!
-
@lxoliva can you point me to any links please because anything nice they've said is not too easy to find
-
@osamak Some things _I_ do are "good", and others are "nasty". What makes _me_ the "enemy"? I'm an FSF-E fellow. Are you a member?
-
@lxoliva if opensource really hated negative campaigns so much, they'd stop the exaggerated,negative ca…
-
@carlopiana Actually, I think that's an oversimplification. That said, proprietary software has _paid_ a lot better.
-
@lxoliva Do you understand the distinction between there being a possibility of something and knowing for certain that it's the case?
-
@lefty: OTOH, proprietary software has a much larger cost to the economy. There is no free lunch: the money has to come from somewhere.
-
@lefty No, but it seems that there is evidence for the other way right now.
-
@martinvonwillebrand I disagree. That's a business issue. Depends on who pays. HW ppl pay real $ to free (verb) SW, I'm negotiating it
-
@rbanffy This seems like a dangerously universal statement for me to simply take at face value. _All_ proprietary s/w in every case?
-
@lefty I don't think the anonymity matters, you do. I don't see any reason to reject support that doesn't come with strings attached
-
@rbanffy {{citation needed}}
-
@ovidius Okay, fine. Do the North Koreans take funding from the South?
-
@osamak According to Richard Stallman, I am. That's what he called me at "Software Freedom Day" in Boston last year.
-
@lefty Yes, at least they did. Is this a rhetorical question?
-
@lefty recording?
-
@ovidius My point, sigh, is that it's not a reasonable situation, and is, in fact, hypocritical. Let's not stray _too_ far.
-
@ovidius King George III did _not_ underwrite the Continental Army. So there. =P
-
@osamak I don't have one, but it's been reported to me by multiple attendees & documented on the GeekFeminism wiki. I wish I _did_ have one.
-
@ovidius I knew I'd wear you down sooner or later. ;)
-
@osamak So, if a heroin dealer is kind to animals, does _that_ make it okay for an anti-addiction program to take his contribution?
-
@lefty btw, I wonder what it has to do with the issue we're discussing. I'm afraid it isnt about what's right and wrong, instead of revenge.
-
@lefty why not? s/he isn't, obviously, the enemy.
-
@osamak Try to keep up: we were talking about so-called "enemies" of free software, including proprietary software and, apparently, me.
-
@osamak Of course he's "the enemy". His goals—selling more heroin—are directly contrary to the organization's—stopping addiction.
-
@osamak You claimed I wasn't an enemy. In doing so, you're apparently running up against the view of the FSF and its President.
-
@lefty: If you say proprietary sw has "paid better", that money has to come from somewhere. It comes from the operational cost of its users
-
@lefty First, you cannot prove that he said so (and in what context). And even if it's true, I may disagree with him on this travel right?
-
s/travel/trivial/
-
@osamak I don't have to prove that he said it: it's been reliably reported. I wrote to the FSF and asked, and got no response whatsoever.
-
@osamak Are you saying that the FSF's statements on matters involving the free software movement aren't authoritative...?
-
@osamak It doesn't matter: it creates an impression of impropriety when an organization takes money from activities it opposes.
-
@rbanffy That's your assertion. Show me some documented support for that assertion. I pay for a piece of software. How does it cost you?
-
@lefty I do respect, follow and support what fsf suggests, but it isn't an authority on the free society. Also, it isn't an 'fsf statement'.
-
@osamak How can you tell it "isn't an FSF statement"? He's the FSF President. He speaks for the organization.
-
@osamak Nor is this about "free society". This is about what, or who, is an "enemy of the free software movement". Who else gets to say?
-
@lefty not before it's proven (i.e. added to fsf website) until then, {{citation needed}}.
-
@osamak So, you think Jack the Ripper could, say, actually have been a "good person" who was only "doing bad things"? How's that work?
-
@osamak It's was a statement made publicly, at an FSF-sponsored event. It's documented on the GeekFeminism wiki.
-
@lefty Google/IBM/Nokia/etc aren't the rippers.
-
@osamak If you find it so embarrassing that you prefer to pretend it never happened, that's okay. I can certainly understand. I might, too.
-
@osamak So you claim. They're all making a ton of money off of "unethical" "antisocial" "illegitimate" "immoral" proprietary software.
-
@lefty: It's paying for something that gives back the same value as something that costs nothing. It inflates cost all over the economy.
-
@osamak Why aren't you out there demanding that Google give up its PageRank algorithm, for example?
-
@lefty I said it clearly. I cannot tell if it's true, and whenever I'm sure it happened and I know the context, I'll probably disagree.
-
@rbanffy Only if a purchase is compelled, and maybe not even then. If I agree that something's worth the price asked, that's my decision.
-
@lefty I'm not. =)
-
@rbanffy This is like claiming that by going to a good restaurant rather than eating at McDonald's, I'm raising the price of food.
-
@osamak You should be. It's proprietary, and it directly affects the valuation of virtually every site on the web. Why should they own that?
-
@lefty part of their income comes from unethical resources, the other is totally good.
-
@lefty: Compelled or not, proprietary software is a less efficient economic model than the cooperative development of FLOSS. Can't beat that
-
@lefty: When you opt for adding money to a less efficient system you are, effecively, destroying its value.
-
@osamak So what? Part of my heroin dealer's income—0.10%, admittedly—comes from "totally good" sources.
-
@rbanffy Oh? Then why is the GIMP still chasing Photoshop's taillights? Where's the "free" version of Final Cut Pro?
-
@lxoliva what is your position on binary firmware for various peripherals, are you along the same lines as the fsf?
-
@lefty o rly? No u
-
@lxoliva binary drivers that execute in the kernel not ok but for peripherals it is?
-
@lefty It's nice talking to you, it really was. It's just that I'm bored re-repeating the same thing over and over on a weekend night. C ya!
-
@teddks "If you can't keep up with the conversation, best not try to join in at all."~Anthony Hopkins as "Hannibal Lecter" in /Hannibal/
-
@lxoliva it's not wrong *for them* to take it.
-
@lefty: Why would Apple need a free FCP? That would subvert their business model. It's less efficient for everybody, but it's what they have
-
@rbanffy They wouldn't. But where the equivalent that the "efficient" free software community has produced?
-
@lefty: It took a long time for MySQL and PostgreSQL to really compete with Oracle and MS, but now they can. Give Lumiera and GIMP some time
-
@rbanffy They can take all the time they need. I'll be using Photoshop and Final Cut Pro in the meantime. Call me when they get there.
-
@lefty: Feel free to use whatever suits your needs. My only advice is to avoid vendor lock-in. I hope the FCP formats are well documented
-
@ender2070 Got a tape? People are asking for one. I'd like one myself.
-
@ender2070 You'd seem to be the one posting "inflammatory messages which add nothing to the discussion" here.
-
@lefty might as well hunker down. Got the fanboys mad. All OSes have their pluses and minuses. It comes down to choice in the end
-
@lefty Can you really claim to be a comrade to free software people if you defend #Apple and attack the !fsf? Why should we "collaborate"?
Osama Khalid likes this. -
@teddks You shouldn't, Ted. You should lock yourself in a closet and refuse to _talk_ to anyone who doesn't pass your little "purity test".
-
@teddks Not trying to interrupt the fun, but I, personally, have come to the conclusion that he doesn't have a point.. It's all personal.
-
@flameeyes Whether freeing firmware is a good idea or not is a problem. But would you feel less or more secure in a open firmware car?
-
@hook open and hackable or simply open? I guess I'd feel sincerely best on an open-but-signature-trusted firmware car, from some POV
-
@flameeyes When I drove an Audi TT, there was a thriving business in rechipping them, to replace the firmware that, e.g., limited top speed.
-
@lefty as long as it's keeping it lower, I'm fine.. I'd be concerned with removing limits.. or active sabotage..
-
@flameeyes That'd be my preferred solution as well. Open/Free, but signed. Hacked car → not road legal, but possible and not illegal.
-
@hook: Reverse Engineering
-
@lefty You've mastered the art of the non-sequitur personal attack. that makes you what, a ninth-level troll? What feats do you have?
All Identi.ca content and data are available under the