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@bkuhn regardless of their motivations, they succeeded in leaving the essential ethical issues out of most of its converts' minds :-(
Wednesday, 23-Jun-10 20:07:52 UTC from web-
@lxoliva, upside is "Open Source" often reaches ppl who'd never otherwise encounter software freedom msg; our task is taking them next step.
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@bkuhn "reaches" them? or "gets to them first?" watch "the code" and tell me it isn't just an effort to…
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@openuniverse,it's not a conspiracy. Stories just get told wrong. Answer: tell them right & talk about the morality of #FaiF in friendly way
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@bkuhn i don't think it's deliberate, most of the time. just like free software, open source thinks it'…
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@bkuhn While y'all are busy debating shades of meaning/language, Apple and MSFT are plowing ahead with no qualms. Just sayin'...
Diego E. 'Flameeyes' Pettenò likes this. -
@mjjzf I don't think it is possible to separate method from value. the word "open" is not as strong as "free", but does indicate value.
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@jzb, Seems to me you're echoing the point I'm making. I'm encouraging #FaiF types to find opportunity w/ OSS to fight proprietary software.
Space Hobo likes this. -
@bkuhn I get the impression we observe very different samples of the OSS crowd
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@lxoliva even on their own,less-free terms, i'd love for oss to join in the fight for free software. but history shows …
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@bkuhn oh, that’s great :)
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@bkuhn me, I've been doing the rounds in latam. lots of people fight for non-Free distros, refusing to even try Free ones
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@lxoliva,maybe they "fight" for non- #FaiF b/c they don't understand subtlety of why !linuxlibre, etc matters. Education opportunity, right?
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@bkuhn the distro-fanatics (no offense) I'm alluding to reject our education and compete with it :-(
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@lxoliva, Hrm. That's distressing to read & I see why it elicits your reaction, but I'd still guess they are a minority of the community.
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@bkuhn based on?
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@openuniverse, I meet a lot of ppl every conf I go to, who come up to me expressing pretty radical #FaiF beliefs but still say "open source"
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This big discussion today inspired me to write a blog post about my current thoughts on the #FaiF terminology debate: http://ur1.ca/0bvnt
gryps75 likes this. -
@fontana,I don't see that too often, although I have seen it. Where do you think this belief stems from? Is it a core what "open source" is?
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@bkuhn Perhaps they're uncomfortable with the word "free". Think it has bad associations or something. Why could _that_ be?
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@jzb Oh, it's not about the numbers, Zonker. Stallman said so. They're "solving world problems" there, apparently. Big stuff.
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@bkuhn Oh. My. God. It's the "Silent Majority", redux. Richard Stallman's appearing in the role of Nixon. Astounding.
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@bkuhn That's right! Yell at 'em, call 'em names. Tell 'em they're not the friends of "free software" they _used_ to be. Very educational.
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@mjjzf The FSF wants to turn this into a "good" v. "evil" situation, effectively making itself into a moral arbiter. I reject that entirely.
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@bkuhn Is the Open Source Definition unclear in some way as to "what open source is about"?
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@lefty sure. in some countries things like free speech and a free press are a no no. ~;-)
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@fontana Clearly, "transparency", specifically of code, is the core value here. There's no atempt to say "this is good, that is evil".
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@zotz In many business organizations, "free software" means "those people who are claiming we're criminals, or should be in jail."
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@bkuhn I guess that'd make you Spiro Agnew, Bradley. Wonders never cease.
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@lefty ??? i've never run into this one. are you saying they think the fsf folks think that or the bsa folks think that of people using FS?
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@bkuhn When you say "stories get told wrong", are you referring to "Windows 7 Sins", "Defective By Design", etc...?
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@jzb This will continue to be the case, I fear. "Freer" and "freer" software being used by fewer and fewer people. Maybe less is more.
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@zotz It's what the FSF _says_. Proprietary software is "illegitimate", "immoral", "unethical", "antisocial", etc.
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@lefty so where does any of that equal illegal?
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@lefty the BSA folks are the ones who say most are criminals from what all I see.
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@zotz "Illegitimate" means "illegal, or _ought_ to be".
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@zotz Richard Stallman has used every single one of those terms in reference to proprietary software.
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@lefty can you give links to each use by rms?
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@fontana Transparency is a key attribute for all FOSS rather than a value. I see it in all advocate expectations: see http://bit.ly/b7r1vT
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@zotz In the comments to this blog posting: http://bit.ly/bMRAkF Search for "immoral".
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@zotz What, do you think I just make these things up?
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@lefty I can't find the links there. I have seen unethical and iirc antisocial. Don't recall immoral but may have seen it.
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@lefty Dont think I have seen illegitimate. Looking for links.
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@lefty Why would you ask this? Do I know you? DO you know me?
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@zotz You seemed to disbelieve me when I said that Stallman had used those terms. I've had others routinely dispute actual quotes.
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@zotz Sigh. They're in there, I assure you.
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@zotz Let's try it this way, then: do you believe that Stallman thinks that proprietary software is "legitimate"? Or "moral"?
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@lefty I don't believe or disbelieve you. I would like to see the quotes for myself.
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@lefty Since I searched and did not find, can you post the links?
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@lefty Not enough evidence to decide. Looking for it.
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@lefty as one who has been misquoted in the past on serious issues it does not surprise me that people disbelieve quotes.
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@zotz You _can't_ be looking: they're right there.
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@zotz I'm frankly expecting you to dispute that the words appear in the places I cite next, or that Stallman was misquoted. Disappoint me.
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@lefty i see immoral here but not illegitimate. given the connotative1? link for many between unethical and immoral, not too surprising.
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@lefty no illegitimate or immoral, here.
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@zotz The _very first quote_ in that entry has the word "immoral" in it, right there. I'm staring at it. How can you be unable to find it?
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@lefty no illegitimate or immoral here
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@zotz "Immoral" is quoted in the NY TImes interview. He says that proprietary software shouldn't be viewed as legitimate on the GNOME list.
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@zotz You're mistaken. I'm sorry you failed to disappoint me. =(
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@zotz Yes, it is. You're not looking.
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@lefty I got that there and as I say that is not great surprise.
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@lefty I am going through link by link (thanks) and replying to each separately. perhaps this is not threading right?
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@zotz Oh! You've stopped disputing what I told you was the case! And now, you're "not surprised"? Why the runaround, then? Wasting my time?
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@zotz How on earth would I keep track of what you're replying to individually. Go back to the blog. Use the search function. Find "immoral".
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@zotz You seem to be making this nineteen times as complex as it needs to be. Any particular reason....?
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@lefty What? When did I dispute anything? I asked for links. I knew of unethical and probably antisocial, did not recall immoral.
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@lefty click on the "in context" link on the post for threading
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@lefty am still not finding illegitimate
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@lefty because unethical and that ilk do not surprise me. illegal does and i am looking for a link and context.
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@zotz Can't help that. You couldn't find "immoral" and it's clearly there.
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@lefty also, trying to respect your effort and document for you that i am making one too.
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@lefty i found immoral when you supplied the link. found the word immoral at the first link but no link from there.
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@zotz Good, 'cause I'm done. I want to enjoy my evening, not validate well-known facts for you.
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@lefty feel free. i have been watching this for a good many years and have never seen any talk of illegality.
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@zotz Stallman's opinions on proprietary software are not exactly news or anything. "Not legitimate" == "illegitimate". See the GNOME list.
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@zotz Look up the meaning of "illegitimate", please.
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