Conversation
Notices
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@thezub for what it's worth, this appears to be fixed in F12
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Snowy 0.1 (Tomboy Online) is released! http://bit.ly/ds252k
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@thezub Django. You are better off asking the guys working on it than me these types of questions. :)
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@thezub sorry to disappoint, but Snowy is written in Python, which is just as dangerous patent-wise as C#
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@thezub so you are gonna write support for it in Gnote?
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@thezub given how much you are trolling, it can only be good.
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@hub yeah, and there is working C code in Conboy that might be of use
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@thezub you don't seem to comprehend that almost any Microsoft patent related to C# would also apply to Python et al
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@sandy the statement was more to punch a troll. those that still have to contribute to anything.
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@hub I love it when people volunteer me to do work on their behalf. Evidently, that's where the "free" part comes in.
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@thezub it is people like you that actually motivated me to find a reason to no longer contribute.
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@thezub The difference between a troll and a contributor is that the contributor helps making things go forward. you are the former.
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@hub yeah, it's the sort of thing that makes free software hackers just say "fuck it" and leave the community after awhile
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@thezub I'd say he's pointing out to you that you, in effect, unilaterally "volunteered" him to do purely "political" work on your behalf.
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@thezub Tell me: if this "patented language" is so "dangerous", why does the FSF support the "DOT GNU" project...?
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@thezub are you a lawyer?
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@sandy that's why I have strictly no regrets.
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@hub He one o' them "Internet lawyers", I think.
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@sandy Which they seem to be doing in fair measure. It looks like it's going to be a low-attendance GUADEC this year. =(
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@thezub Microsoft has asserted, repeatedly, that the Linux kernel infringes >200 of their patents. Maybe you should stop using it.
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@lefty Asserted indeed, but not acted upon.
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@thezub this just mean that any "legal" opinion you have on patentability is in the are of trolling.
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@thezub Wow! There are incompetent examiners in the Patent Office! Who knew? (Bad patents get overturned. Got a point?)
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@carlg Thanks, glad you liked it :)
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@lefty they only get overturned if someone with the money to do so takes them to court
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@thezub I fail to see how that matters. If you believe them on one count, and view it as "too risky", what's the difference?
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@lefty This year I am skipping Guadec because we are expecting our first baby around that time. Have fun though!
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@lefty I'm only missing it because of the baby, fwiw. Hoping to make it in 2011!
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@maco A patent with clear prior art is pretty easy to overturn. I don't believe doing away with the system's the right idea. Better ideas?
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@maco: For a patent that is obviously incongruent with legislative and case law, it's a matter of letting the court find that, that's all.
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@migueldeicaza I heard, I'll miss seeing you. Happy baby to you and Laura!
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@thezub if you were so concerned, instead of calling a project name, you'd just check first whether it applies or not.... RTFS.
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@reality Nor have they acted on Mono, in the slightest fashion. What's the difference, other than relative optionality?
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@thezub But it's not "too risky" to depend on the kernel, which—according to Microsoft—is equally infringing and has no "Community Promise".
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@hub It's a growing club. Dare I ask, are you going to be at GUADEC...?
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@sandy Well, I'll miss you, too. We finally get it in the Netherlands, and hardly anyone seems to be going. :*(
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@thezub then I'd recommend avoiding making inflammatory claims regarding patents. Otherwise I respect your right to choose here ;-)
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@thezub Then you'd better stay the hell away from anything you haven't purchased a valid license for, otherwise you're at potential risk.
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@thezub Well, then you should stay away from the "legal issues" entirely. It's not clear that you actually understand them.
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@lefty but it still requires deep enough pockets for it to happen. you have to challenge the patent in court
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@thezub Now that we've dispensed with the "patent" part, since it's not about "legal issues" but "principle", where's the "dangerous" part?
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@hub Is this some sort of fraternity initiation I haven't heard about yet, or something? I can't believe this nonsense.
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@thezub I understand _exactly_ what you're saying. That's why I'm in an excellent position to tell you that it makes absolutely no sense.
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@thezub banshee doesn't use winforms, just fyi
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@thezub "GTFO"? We're having a _discussion_ here, friend.
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@lefty what for?
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@thezub You've sidestepped the issue of patent infringement in the kernel. There's not even a "Community Promise" there. Why no worries?
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@thezub this is a packaging bug that was fixed some time ago. you may have an older version. either way, winforms has never been used
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@thezub what distro/version and what version of Tomboy? I'd like to talk to the packager and get that fixed, thanks
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@hub Good point. Bitterballen?
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@thezub You have all the "specifics" on Mono, then, do you, and you know to a certainty that any claims around the kernel are bogus, eh?
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@thezub You're like someone who worries about getting hit by lightning while running into heavy traffic with his eyes closed.
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@thezub in my opinion, winforms on Mono is mostly useful for businesses with custom apps wanting to migrate to Linux without a rewrite
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@thezub I don't concern myself with the patent question, or else I'd never write a single line of code
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@thezub Why couldn't they? What's to stop them? Again, there's not even a "Community Promise" which offers _some_ protection.
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@thezub it's actually a packaging bug that originates with Microsoft, but here's a commit that explains http://bit.ly/aFk29U
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@lefty I was just saying that if they thought they had a strong patent against Linux wouldn't they just go "nyah!"?
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@reality Not necessarily. Lots of their customers _use_ Linux. Do they want to piss them off? What do they gain?
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@lefty So the existence or not of patent infringing material is therefore irrelevant
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@thezub Citation?
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@thezub I thought I just answered that? If you're asking for legal advice, I don't think "fuck patents" is what you want to hear...
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@thezub you're talking about Microsoft from 10 years ago. they're very different these days, and getting more open every year
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@thezub Without even knowing what they are, they're sure they can be worked around. I'm sorry, that's nonsense.
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@thezub that being said, you're of course entitled to your own opinion, and I'm not going to engage you on the topic of Microsoft's evilness
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@thezub No, it's a standard intellectual property licensing arrangement. It's done on your behalf when you buy _any_ technology.
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@thezub This is standard. Want to know? Get a license from them. Novell knows _exactly_ what patents are at issue, I'm confident.
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@thezub true, but I was past my 140 limit when I wanted to say "trustworthiness" ;-)
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@thezub Because Novell wouldn't pay if there was no reason to do so. They have lawyers who insist on that sort of thing.
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@thezub Novell licensed patents from Microsoft. You don't think they know which patents they licensed...?
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@thezub Citation?
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@thezub sorry, I'm not interested in pursuing this line of discussion with you. but I will check out the packaging issue we discussed, thx
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@thezub They have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. They can't give money away, even to Microsoft, without a clear reason.
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@thezub For better or worse, your offended sensibilities have no actual effect on the operation of patent law.
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@thezub Sigh. Did you imagine that, in the face of this "threat", Novell didn't get their lawyers involved?
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@thezub That's nonsensical. The shareholders would throw out the entire board of directors. They'd be in violation of Federal law.
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@thezub In your researches into the patent system, did you ever happen to come across the phrase "due diligence"...?
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@thezub What? The CEO tells the shareholders, "We gave millions of dollars to Microsoft because _they frightened us_." Seriously?
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@thezub If you're claiming that Microsoft has some secret power to force other corporations to break Federal law, then, yeah, I must be.
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@thezub Your issue is that you start from an axiom that Microsoft is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Hell. This is standard cross-licensing.
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@thezub How "highly" are we talking about here? With sharp sticks? What do you think "coercion" means, exactly?
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@thezub This is irrelevant. Novell would not have licensed patents without a) knowing what they were for and b) believing they had value.
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@lefty so red hat must be very dumb by not signing such a deal with msft?
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@thezub Do you actually know anything—anything at _all_—about the laws governing publicly-traded corporations? Ever heard of the SEC?
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@thezub You're certainly saying a lot of completely nonsensical things.
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@jwildeboer I never said that. Red Hat has its own lawyers, who make their own assessments. Differences in legal opinions aren't unusual.
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@lefty Novell cross-licensed. They have patents that MSFT is interested in.
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@jwildeboer Different organizations have different tolerances for risk, as well. I don't believe I said a single thing about Red Hat.
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@jwildeboer Again, that's standard. Novell would not have licensed patents that their lawyers said had no value.
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@lefty your arguments are NOVL specific? Didnt sound like that.
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@jwildeboer If they didn't think MS' patents had value, Novell could have _sold_ their own, rather than trading them, right?
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@jwildeboer I'm address @thezub's claim that Microsoft's claims vis a vis the kernel are completely spurious. We don't know that.
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@jwildeboer The Novell agreement provides some evidence that they may, in fact, have some validity.
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@lefty as the financial terms of the deal are secret, we cannot say IMHO
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@jwildeboer No, but again, corporations have a fiduciary duty to shareholders. They can't give money away for no reason or "pay blackmail".
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@lefty MSFT could make the patent list public. Then the community at large can decide. ATM it is FUD.
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@thezub You've named one, and you haven't said why you respect him. I work with patents professionally, as I've said.
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@jwildeboer Why should they? It's worth more to them if they don't. Don't you know any game theory?
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@lefty RHT has the same duty. Our shareholders seem to be OK with our decision to not pay an innovation tax to MSFT.
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@jwildeboer Not according to Novell, it's not. They paid for a license to those "FUD" patents. You think shareholders haven't _asked_?
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@jwildeboer And, again, that's undoubtedly based on _your_ lawyers' assessments. Is Novell bound by your lawyers' opinions?
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@lefty I know openness and fairness. MSFT can play games, I prefer fairness.
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@thezub You mean "Red Hat" and "Canonical", and how would _I_ know? I haven't seen Microsoft's claimed patents, either.
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@jwildeboer You can prefer anything you like, but that doesn't change the way business gets done in the real world, at least so far.
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@lefty the linux kernel is not NOVL nor RHT. NOVL takes from community but put shareholders over community. RHT does not.
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@thezub Again, how would I know? Evidently, Mandriva doesn't think so, or (more likely) figures they have nothing much to lose, worst case.
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@jwildeboer Bully for you guys, that's admirable. And so what? Novell has a _much_ broader product line than you do. Completely different.
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@thezub There are lots of noted experts, and I frankly don't trust you to represent a position accurately, based on your misunderstandings.
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@lefty and real-world business is quite OK for RHT; -)
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@thezub And so what? As I've said, different companies have different tolerances for risk. Novell is not a pure "open source" business.
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@jwildeboer Again, that's good, and I'm happy for my friends there, but I fail to see the relevance to the discussion.
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@jwildeboer I smoke all day long, and have more energy than friends who don't. Maybe they should take it up, huh?
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@lefty Novell are also rather unpopular. Red Hat do fine and play fair. /cc: @jwildeboer
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@thezub Not what you think it does, I assure you.
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@reality This is all wonderful. We should have a special "Hoorah!" for Red Hat. But why is this relevant?
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@thezub Well, the overwhelming majority of Linux distributions seem to be fine with Mono. So there you go
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@thezub Since it's never gotten into a courtroom, though, no one actually has any idea of whether there's an issue or not.
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@lefty Popularity is very important in the open source world, more so because people are less tied down
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@thezub Again, no one can say that with the slightest degree of certainty. All you can do is assess the risk as you see it. Same for Mono.
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@reality Makes no difference whatsoever in the legal world.
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@thezub Canonical's legal staff says Mono is fine.
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@thezub s/kernel/Mono
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@thezub No, in fact, their stance was "we see no reason to exclude it". You're misrepresenting them. http://bit.ly/anFc7b
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@thezub I'd note that you're specifically misrepresenting them in a way that makes it appear they support your view. Shenanigans. Tsk tsk.
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@thezub Please _try_ to be honest: "At this stage, we see no issue with patents and Mono."~Mark Shuttleworth http://bit.ly/aKh748
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@thezub No, that means they're moving to "F-Stop" gone. Is Tomboy going someplace?
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@thezub Violation claims as far as _Mono_ goes. You believe him on one, yet not on the other.
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@thezub Seems Shuttleworth's opinion only has value when it aligns with the one you've previously settled on. So why cite him at all?
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@thezub Did anyone say there weren't "risks involved"? Where? Are they dropping F-Spot specifically because of Mono? Don't say "Yes".
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@thezub Neither of these support your position at all.
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@thezub You seem to have forgotten: we started out on your claim that Mono was "dangerous". Still wondering how DOT GNU _isn't_ "dangerous".
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@thezub By the way: don't cite Boycott Novell if you want to retain even a shred of credibility. @schestowitz is a demonstrated liar.
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@thezub No, I'm afraid _you_ don't understand your position at all.
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@thezub You said Tomboy was written in a "dangerous language". Is that out of context? How?
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@lefty bitterballen with mustard, yay! Also, don't forget to buy haagse hopjes ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopje ) for people at home.
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@armijn Good suggestion! I was kicking myself for not buying a bigger bottle of hydromel in Brussels.
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@armijn No one knows what in bitterballen! I asked someone once and got told, "Inquisitive tourists".
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@thezub Well, don't let me keep you. Try to actually support a coherent position next time, please. It makes things so much easier.
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@lefty it's the same filling as in kroketten. It is a ragout of beef or veal, and quite a bit of horse meat too.
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@thezub Thank you for your entirely unsolicited advice. Some people say I'm arrogant, but I know better than that.
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@armijn I've had horsemeat sashimi in Tokyo! It's _very_ good.
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@thezub Do more research on patent law and corporate governance. You haven't a clue what you're talking about.
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@thezub The sources you "cited" were irrelevant, as I pointed out.
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@thezub I'll formally debate you any time you care to show up. Going to GUADEC?
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@lefty and deep fried squashed with other mystery ingredients it's even better (and don't forget the mustard).
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@armijn No, the bitterballen are actually an excuse to eat the mustard, like escargot are an excuse to eat melted butter and garlic.
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@armijn I love bruincafe food. I'm looking forward to Den Haag.
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@lefty the Dutch are the masters of deep fried mystery meat!
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@lefty if you like mechanically separated meat (chicken) you should try a frikandel. It's completely anonymised, like TOR, but with meat.
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@armijn I'm going to remember that. I never ask what's in anything I eat usually: knowing can't make me any happier.
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