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@fontana, my argument is: #RedHat has commercial interest in !Fedora being seen as the most !FaiF distribution & it serves RHEL well as such
Tuesday, 03-Aug-10 18:59:26 UTC from web-
Wondering if @bkuhn 's attacks at Canonical and Ubuntu are worth the damage to free software and the community.
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@kletskous I haven't seen attacks, I've seen frank discussion. Free software and the community existed long before Canonical and Ubuntu.
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@kletskous Posts like yours are not particularly constructive. You should go read Shuttleworth's "anti-tribalism" post, and try again.
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@kletskous what attacks are you talking about
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@kletskous truth hurts. calling arguments "attacks" means that they hurts.
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@gabe yeah well, before writing that post he should done a check inside his own organisation. They are full of tribalism.
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@hub that was my underlying point, yeah.
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@gabe I was talking about shuttleworth, not the OP.
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@hub sorry, haven't had any coffee in four months. You're right, of course.
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@gabe I have had only one this AM. thanks for the reminder. Need to have more.
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@bkuhn: I was replying (yesterday) to one of your remarks like Debian generally seeks succes of software freedom and Ubuntu does not
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@hub and @gabe and @lorddrachenblut: see my reply to @bkuhn
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@kletskous What's wrong with criticism? I have never seen @bkuhn "attack" anybody. He's one of the nicest people I know...
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@kletskous Truthful, constructive criticism does not damage community. @bkuhn explains his reasoning clearly. He's not out for blood.
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@kletskous Calling it an attack gives you (and others) reason to discard his opinion without considering it. Now THAT is damaging.
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@cmsj obviously not.
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@fabsh: I think to say that is not constructive and does not do the Ubuntu comminity justice.
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@kletskous I don't think he's talking about the "community". It very much looks like he's right on the company to me (sadly)...
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@fabsh using attack vs. criticism really depends on whose side of the argument you're on.
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@gabe: I think it is not constructive, nor fair to say that Ubuntu generally does not seek success of software freedom #justmyopinion
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@ghosthand Yep. Which is why I think it shouldn't be supressed...
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@kletskous that's fine, and you're free to support that opinion with facts (or not). My opinion is that Ubuntu seeks success of Ubuntu first
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@fabsh: Ubuntu is the community
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@kletskous So you believe the direction Ubuntu takes is largely decided by the community? Give me a break...
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@fabsh We are not allowed to say anything bad about Canonical or we weill be guilty of tribalism, and just living in the past.
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@gomerx Tribalism my ass. I'm an outlaw, what do I care? :)
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@fabsh: did I say that? No, I did not because I don't know that. I just think ubuntu contributed lots to software freedom.
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@gabe: well and thanks to that many more people are now using free software then there would have been if there were no ubuntu.
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@gomerx And ubuntu users aren't allowed to say anything bad about (enter distro here) or they will be guilty of fanboyism. ;) #worksbothways
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@kletskous The Gnome Census debate was about companies, though...
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@ghosthand I don't hear a lot of bad from Ubuntu users. I think Shuttleworth is trying to get Ubuntu devs to own criticizm aimed at him, tho
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@gomerx i agree wholeheartedly. canonical doesn't handle criticism very well and are good at deflecting it.
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@cmsj I think the problem there is that "we" is "people." Replace them all with shell scripts, and the world will be beautiful again. :D
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@bkuhn I never said it didn't. I am no idiot.
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@ghosthand I feel sorry for the anger tht is coming towards Ubuntu users. If there's evil, it comes from Canonical, not Ubuntu users.
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@fontana,mind you,I don't think this behavior is wrong or even #problematic: it just means a change in #Red_Hat desires could change !Fedora
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@bkuhn: well if that would be the case I think the Ubuntu community is strong enough to stand up for themselves.
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@bkuhn: Honestly, I can say that isn't true. Red Hat has _never_ said to me "Fedora should be more free". Red Hat was fine when we were OSS.
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@bkuhn: I wasn't fine with it, suggested to Fedora Community that we commit to Freedom, and they agreed, so we did it.
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Bradley M. Kuhn
Ubuntu users
, Fedora users
, Tom "spot" Callaway
, Richard Fontana
, Mark Shuttleworth
@fontana @spot,BTW,how's !Fedora leadership elected? Found #disturbing: @sabdfl personally must appt !Ubuntu Community Council: is.gd/e0No9
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@gomerx true.
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@bkuhn: The entire Ubuntu membership votes to approve them. It is not the sole decision of mark.
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Bradley M. Kuhn
Fedora users
, Free Software & Culture Group
, Tom "spot" Callaway
, Richard Fontana
@fontana, I agree !Fedora !FaiF wasn't a plot, rather it's permitted, w/ @spot (et al)'s urging, b/c it behooves #Red_Hat to continue it.
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@bkuhn: http://is.gd/e0NGw describes leadership structure, also http://is.gd/e0NJZ
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@bkuhn: More detail here http://is.gd/e0NMc
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@branchplan, point is: you can't even become a *candidate* for !Ubuntu leadership w/out a coronation from the @sabdfl. Is 'b' accurate? :)
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@bkuhn: Yes, you've stated this before, but what I'm telling you is that this canary built the coalmine. :) Not "Red Hat".
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@jamba, I think for-profit corporate distrust is purely my own opinion. As my bio here says, I don't speak officially for anyone here.
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@bkuhn: ubuntu is not a democracy; sabdfl made that clear more than once and it is clearly set out on their website: http://ur1.ca/0zrz7
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@bkuhn: you seam to perceive Canonical as an "evil corporation, as I see it as a business looking for a viable business model around foss
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@kletskous Ubuntu promotes their brand above the communities that actually do the work. More users is good, but not uninformed users.
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@cmsj This grumpy free software person raises GNU/Kittens. Spaying and neutering are an evil form of DRM.
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@cmsj you need a reality check,
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@highvoltage, funny you mention that in subthread where I'm giving !Fedora a hard time. Any corporate-controlled distro'll be #problematic
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@kletskous, I'm not saying @sabdfl misrepresented dictatorship (it's right there in username). I'm saying it's #problematic fact for !Ubuntu
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@highvoltage, if I've a fact wrong on any topic, pls tell me & I'll publicly issue a correction! (most of what I say here is opinion though)
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I second that, he's more likely 2 be too considerate ♺ @mairin: @highvoltage if it's @bkuhn doing the talking, I can assure you it's not bli
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@bkuhn haha -- You're cool in my book ... I agree with many (but not all) of your opinions and besides...you have a pretty slick website!
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@bkuhn: who is Ubuntu?
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@jamba, I hope you are being sarcastic, b/c my website is *specifically* designed to *not* look slick. See: ebb.org/bkuhn/why-crap.html
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@gabe: well, go to the Ubuntu forum or so and inform all the uninformed.
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@fontana,you don't believe estoppel is a relevant factor in defense of software freedom? That's really what we're talking about here, right?
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@bkuhn: in other words.. who has the problem and do you really think they are all a bunch of sheep?
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@bkuhn yeah I was being sarcastic :-) but I think that it is awesome
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@kletskous,No sheep;I've often volunteered myself for projects w/ broken leadership structures,but it's important to keep eyes open about it
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@bkuhn actually I meant to ask you: do you use any software for your blog, or is it just straight HTML?
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@bkuhn: have you expressed your opinions on ubuntu council's irc meetings?
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@fontana I do wonder about the amount of effort to expunge harmless legacy, even if I agree with the principle you espouse (which I do)
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@kletskous, I've express them directly to the people in charge of the #problematic policies (Asay, Brock, etc.); they weren't interested.
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@fontana, I've just decided I want to use phrase "harmless legacy principle" as much as possible. Thanks for that! #harmlesslegacyprinciple
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@alisonchaiken, not sure what "spare" means here, but I find !BusyBox code easy to work w/. I've even got 2 bug fixes I'm working on, slowly
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@bkuhn: well then next step could be to list it on the agenda and start a discussion on irc; there they have to take a stand..
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@bkuhn Because !BusyBox aims for compactness and provides all OS main features, it's kind of a nano-K&R, full of useful code examples.
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@bkuhn: well it's never too late to turn the tide; it is important you keep dancing :) http://ur1.ca/0zt3b
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@bkuhn: indeed, it doesn't so no need for you to strive to seperate.
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@bkuhn: you sound like a parent who tells their children what is best for them in stead of discussing it with them as reasonable persons.
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@kletskous, ppl can of course make their own choices. I remain amazed that ppl volunteer for a for-profit company, but it's their choice.
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@bkuhn: no it is not fake; most children question or go against their parents autority and that is a good thing.
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@bkuhn How come Canonical, who get much right and advance FOSS greatly, get constant criticism while others less good get much less?
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@bkuhn: No, Canonical doesn't require that. It requires copyright assignment for some projects where Canonical is the upstream.
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@bkuhn: if you are amazed, why don't you just try to find out what motivates them in stead of critisize them from the side line?
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@jamesw, the idea of a "for-profit company" as an upstream is just one step away from #Open_Core. The entire idea of it is #problematic.
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@kletskous,I'm often discussing issue w/ ppl in the FLOSS community. Notwithstanding my dent frequency,I'm engaged in many efforts elsewhere
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@alisonchaiken, exactly. It was proprietary nature of #UbuntuOne & its tight integration w/ #Ubuntu that concerned me so much re: #Canonical
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@bkuhn My experience: it reaches a point where the business dismisses the criticism as fanaticism due to qty. Hard to correct after that.
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@webmink, I agree (see my comments today re: Lennart's blog). I basically have but one blog post on this issue, FWIW. More isn't needed.
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@bkuhn: thanks... still you seem to be avoiding the ubuntu council meetings and preferring to comment from the side line?
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@bkuhn Excellent. At Sun it took much effort to persuade certain leaders FaiF was a reasonable goal because of that...
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@mairin http://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html (I run Fedora on my desktop and laptops)
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@robmyers Wow...... That page is so vague it hurts.....
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@mairin Fedora with the linux libre kernel is a free system AFAIK . Like I say, I run Fedora...
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@mairin Beyond 2GB it does, I think. And they have a music store tied into it.
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@fabsh it looks pretty specific to me, especially how it reasons per distro what is and isn't free abou…
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@fabsh It describes the criteria & says which distros fail. It also links to the free distro def. Let me know how we can make it clearer.:-)
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@bkuhn: I still don't understand why that's so important: the solution rsync+funambol is simple only very expensive (storage+bandwidth)
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@bkuhn: weak excuses; if you really have a point, list it on the agenda and discuss it in the open.
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@robmyers Specifying what firmware is questionable in Fedora for example. I am guessing wifi stuff?
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@alisonchaiken: I agree!
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@fabsh what would the point of that be? a lot if it's in the kernel- simple saying that it doesn't use …
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he seems to want a bug report instead of a mere explanation- but a bug report isn't the point of that page (rather obviously)
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@openuniverse What is the point of the page without it? [Citation needed] as Wikipedia would say.
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@fabsh As much as I respect the FSF's position on non-free wifi firmware, my otherwise FaiF F13 setup wouldn't be able to do much without it
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@fabsh the purpose of the page is simply to demonstrate how various distros could meet the fsf's OWN cr…
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@openuniverse The purpose of the page is to bitch, I believe.
Cassidy James likes this. -
@fabsh apparantly, the purpose of the page is to explain why some distros are more faif than others- an…
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@fabsh Off the top of my head, yes. I think it's whatever the Linux kernel has that's nonfree. I'll ask about including more info, thanks.
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what you want is to say that some things don't matter- maybe they don't to you, but they matter to free…
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@robmyers That would be awesome! :)
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@openuniverse I was joking. ;)
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@kletskous Ubuntu isn't actually free software though (not totally). Trisquel is a free version of Ubuntu.
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@fabsh that's a relief- i was going to ask what you did with the real fabsh- you're in rare form today or something
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@fabsh I have a nice wifi dongle on my desktop system: http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/index_html/net/wireless/index_html/cards.html
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@robmyers I don't have a desktop system. :)
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@handheldcar: sure and I can use gnewsense too.
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@fabsh i'll stop falling for it eventually of course and just think "uh, he's doing it again!"
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@fabsh Then do I have a list of Free wifi dongles for you! ;-)
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@openuniverse LOL.... ;)
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@fabsh first there was "you have been trolled!" then there was "you just got punk'd!" but now there's: …
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i'm gonna start telling people they've just been FABSH'd though
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@bkuhn: btw who is paying you atm?
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@bkuhn: I think the biggest mistake you make is to underestimate the power/capacities of all the non-tech users who come to ubuntu
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@bkuhn don't see how I missed that, thanks!
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@kletskous, my employment history & status is very well documented publicly. What's its relevance in this conversation, exactly?
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rt @bkuhn: @kletskous, more non-tech users of Free Software is of course good. It's an open question whether bringing t…
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@robmyers I don't want a dongle sticking out of my laptop! I do have free wifi drivers anyway AFAIK.
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@fabsh I use a stylish short extender cable for dongles. But if you have free drivers already even better. :-)
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@bkuhn: non-relevant, just curious. Anyway, Ubuntu is the only distro that is really succesfull in attracting new people to gnu/linux.
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@robmyers I think the only proprietary drivers in this TP are Bluetooth (which I never use) and the BIOS isn't free of course...
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@bkuhn: the free software world needs peple with other then tech skills too and no other distro has so far succeeded in attracting them.
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@fabsh Hey that's a very free system! :-) I'm looking for a bluetooth dongle today as my desktop doesn't seem to have it built in (!).
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@robmyers I bought it because of that. I didn't want to mess with Nvidia drivers anymore... Good luck with the dongle! :)
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@robmyers I *guess* you mean FaiF dongles - if they really are for free, I can use some ;-)
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@jamba for me it is more a practical matter. also wary of gpl projects with one main coder and few outside commits. need community 2b safer.
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