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@carlg, yes, that's my point. !FSF's position *only* seem extreme b/c no one is more extreme. OSI'd be seen as extreme if FSF didn't exist.
Saturday, 07-Aug-10 15:20:31 UTC from web-
@bkuhn Oh, come on. That's the *definition*
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@webmaven, #Behlendorf told me that often in the 2000s,even thanking !FSF for existing so #Apache types could be the moderates not radicals.
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@bkuhn BTW: I am in no way saying that FSF or RMS being extreme is bad, in the contrary. We need extreme positions.
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@bkuhn What is your definition of 'extreme'? I am using the Overton Window definition.
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@webmaven @yamanickill extreme is a relative term, that's my point. !FSF *only* *seems* extreme b/c there's no one more radical than FSF.
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@bkuhn wait, are you saying your only radical because nobody else is even more radical? I like that logic
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@x1101, no, I take the positions I do b/c I think they're morally & ethically correct; other people label them as extreme, though.
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@webmaven,I admit I'm oddly more comfortable w/ 'radical' than 'extreme',but I actually think universal software freedom is actually neither
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@qchapter http://is.gd/e7A8v : "Favouring fundamental change, or change at the root cause of a matter."
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@bkuhn The spectrum here is between 'all software should be Free' to 'all software should be proprietary'.
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@bkuhn If you want the 'all software should be free' position to be less radical, promote 'and proprietary software should be illegal'.
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@qchapter I'm not making a value judgement. At one time universal suffrage was considered radical. So too with software freedom today.
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@bkuhn the !fsf may be seen extreme, but they really are quite moderate. I.e. in my view *all* published media should be #faif.
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@mfoetsch Sure, that's a historical definition. The current usage is what I have a problem with. Radical meaning "out there."
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@bkuhn I never said that. Unlike the idea of "carbon neutrality", software freedom is also not total bullshit. ;)
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@bkuhn The !fsf says “proprietary programs take your freedom”. But every unfree media which becomes part of your life makes you less free.
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@qchapter It's not historical, it's radical ("pertaining to the roots" of the word) ;-) Many ppl (even US presidents) use words incorrectly
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@bkuhn ... although I suppose we could explore other forms of radicalism, such as 'proprietary sw source code must be published.'
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@bkuhn that’s why !freesoftware as advocated by the !fsf is a *moderate* part of !freeculture → everything should be copyleft / !gpl
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@webmaven So we're just debating semantics. I'm more interested in concepts of free software, not semantic subtleties. Opting out.
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@fabsh, I disagree, but we don't have to debate the value of carbon neutrality; that's probably a side-point in this conversation. :)
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@silner Hence the appeal of wishy-washy 'the truth must be somewhere in the middle' journalism.
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@qchapter right, and I'm glad they exist! I don't hold 100% same views, but just saying it *could* be considered radical http://ur1.ca/10zsy
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@qchapter Or, indeed, just consistent in an environment which rarely is.
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@bkuhn True. Although I'd love to debate that with you over a red wine some day... :)
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@qchapter We're not debating semantics, we're debating messaging to move the idea of sw freedom into the center.
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@bkuhn Yup. The same could be said for e.g. "conservative" and "liberal" ...they're all relative terms.
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@qchapter If we want sw freedom to be considered less 'out there' we must find a position that is more 'out there' to contrast.
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@webmaven No one learns the philosophy behind fs by running firefox on win. It's the uncompromising users that further the cause.
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@qchapter you're preaching to the converted. I am saying an even *less* compromising position needs to exist to shift perceptions.
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@webmaven Oh, following now. How do you be less compromising than RMS?
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@qchapter 'less compromising' was badly phrased. I meant 'more radical'. It isn't that hard, actually.
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@qchapter Here is a possible example: a wikileaks-like project for leaked proprietary source code
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@qchapter Another possibility: actively campaigning to end copyright protection for binaries made from unpublished source.
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@webmaven Both good ides. There's plenty of damning info in EULA's. Idea: A prominent site explaining restrictions in common EULA's.
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@qchapter I'm sure you can dream up some more, based on analogies from suffrage and civil rights movements.
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@bkuhn many don’t, but some do. There are also BSD people advocating free software, and still there’s copyleft in fs.
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@bkuhn free culture is the wider concept, and it’s a concept the FSF doesn’t (yet?) embrace.
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@bkuhn it will likely take for longer to free all media than to free all software, so I’m fine with the FSF sticking to FS as goal.
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@arnebab would be nice if they didn't keep promoting that non-Free was ok for non-code though. could still only push Free code themselves.
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@carlg you can find what some would call a more extreme position here: http://www.digitalproductions.co.uk/
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@bkuhn check crosbie fitch here: http://www.digitalproductions.co.uk/ would you consider him more extereme than #FSF ?
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@zotz I think so too, and it’s where I disagree with @rms and the !fsf: Everything should give it’s users the 4 freedoms, not just software.
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@zotz that’s also what I live by putting everything I write on my website under free licenses → http://draketo.de/licenses
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@webmaven some of my possibilities: http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/2007/04/some-thoughts-on-copyright-offensive.html
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@zotz One great example of successful !freeculture is Battle for Wesnoth → http://wesnoth.org — everything under !gpl, code+artwork+text+…
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@arnebab they don't need to say it's not OK themselves, they just need to stop saying it *is* OK.
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@arnebab even works of opinion?
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@webmaven Something like that would have to be much better at hiding than the pirate bay... they'd need the Bat Cave or Tracey Island
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@webmaven I don't see how that follows. Although I believe all software should be free, I don't think legal compulsion is good either.
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@laurelrusswurm I hear that. :-) I consider many "mainstream" views to be quite radical. But I find apathy to be the biggest enemy.
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@webmaven For consumers the problem is that EULAs were introduced without warning and sneakily. Even today most people don't understand.
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@qchapter I wouldn't say enemy. Apathy is prevalent because people are just tired. Most are just getting through the day. Which may be...
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@qchapter ...a corporate and/or government strategy to turn back the hands of freedoms and make us all back into serfs.
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@laurelrusswurm You're missing the point of #overtonwindow: more radical positions makes less radical ones seem acceptable by comparison.
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@webmaven Consumers didn't 'license' things before EULAs, they purchased goods. Companies entered license agreements not consumers.
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@webmaven so we're talking strategic ploy here (i'm one of those annoying people who jump in without bg... no idea what Overton Window is. )
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@webmaven recently our Heritage Minister who is pushing a Canadian DMCA put foot squarely in mouth calling detractors "radical extremists"
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@webmaven so in Canada right now most thinking people want to be called "radical extremists" :)
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@webmaven I think all art should be free too, but i don't think creators of art should be compelled to make it so. Issue must be understood
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laurelrusswurm
Free Software Foundation
, LibrePlanet
, Free Software
, Richard Stallman Political Notes
, qchapter
@qchapter !fsf and @rms are incredibly important but it is precisely people using firefox on windows that educates about !fs !lp
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@webmaven kind of like "The Pirate Party" name to desigmatize & raise awareness of the ideas behind 'piracy' and !copyight?
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@laurelrusswurm Worth noting that SW EULAs are the 2nd attempt at this idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
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@laurelrusswurm This was certainly true in my case. The only technicality is that FF educates about open source softwar…
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@bkuhn Fsf is seen as extreme becauce they refuse to compromise on moral issues. Amnesty is also extreme if you follow that reasoning
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@laurelrusswurm More like !pp pushing copyright nullification actually makes copyleft seem like a reasonable compromise.
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@webmaven Yes that's true, but the difference now is gov't is not looking out for the consumer & rules have changed w/o telling consumers
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@handheldcar for me too. (just starting to use Ubuntu, which I am told is not really "free" *sigh*) The ideas are new. Gnu even :D
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@laurelrusswurm I disagree. Most folks downloading and using firefox in win, don't think much about the philosophy of sw freedom.
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@laurelrusswurm ah, welcome to the fold. I've only been using GNU for a couple years. Are you familiar with Trisquel? s…
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@webmaven i don't know !pp (not in identica search) but i take your meaning. Software folk have been arguing it for ages; new to the rest
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@qchapter it takes a long time to change ways of thinking. That is actually why ACTA is not a done deal. The billions spent by MPAA to...
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@handheldcar Enough trouble with migration to Ubuntu 8). XP end of Msft 4 me. Vista phone home w/o my permission? Not on >MY< computer.
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@qchapter It works both ways. Just think, there is an epic battle being waged for the hearts and minds of computer users the world over...
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@laurelrusswurm okay, holler if you can't find answers to your computer woes. I saw that GNU sticker on your blog. I go…
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@qchapter ... and computer users have no idea. We are just trying to use these tools steeped in mystery & magic.
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@teddks In my opioin yes, sure, why not? @mlinksva had a good argument in ur1.ca/1112z Don't forget translations.
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@handheldcar Thanks... this is another thing that ordinary users don't know about: the community values that comes with the !lp sharing
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@arnebab For now, I can go for 3-to-5-year copyright restriction on selling, but someone pointed to ur1.ca/0tceu but I haven't read it yet.
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@bkuhn pls describe wrt software freedom a position stronger than demanding universal software freedom.
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@zotz Crosbie's great, his philosophy is well worth understanding.He's an abolitionist rather than a reformer, therefore more "extreme". :-)
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@teddks jepp. Even works of opinion. You have to state that you changed it and what’s the original, though.
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@laurelrusswurm that is the truth! a staged adoption instead of cold turkey usually has a greater success rate
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@teddks the only thing I see as unchangeable is the license which grants the 4 freedoms, because that’s a hack on the copyright system.
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@teddks and to hack the copyright system, you have to play by its rules.
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@mlinksva There are much more xtreme *means* than those used by the FSF, and rms isn't a (c) abolitionist a la Crosbie.
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@opentechgirl absolutely. Everyone is different, but it's no good getting people to exceed their comfort zone which can turn them off.
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@robmyers yeahbut no©!=universal software freedom; didn't realize crosbie an abolitionist-his writing hard to parse in this universe
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@osamak tangentially related, I sometimes wonder why if DRM must=Digital Restrictions Mgmt then why not must ©=copyrestriction? !free
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@osamak that says „don’t use cc NC licenses“, because they impose a noncommercial clause on a community and kill off much momentum.
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@mlinksva If you can make the acronym fit... ;-)
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Arne Babenhauserheide
Free Software Foundation
, Free Software
, Richard Stallman Political Notes
, laurelrusswurm
@laurelrusswurm @rms and the !fsf said early on “our free tools should run on unfree platforms where that draws people to !freesoftware ”
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@arnebab It isn't in English, but why is that?
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@arnebab Rewriting s/w is a good idea to accomplish s/w freedom, but rewriting culture's a very bad one. We just need a legislative © change
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@robmyers can one letter be an acronym?
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@arnebab cool. I must be smarter than i thought :D
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@mlinksva Correct, and WP is a great e.g. but we can't (and shouldn't) rewrite history and culture. Changing © is very important eventually.
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@mlinksva I love this, and I do use it often in Arabic ;) as they are already written in two words: "copy rights".
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@mlinksva demanding automatic copyright only gets Free & Copyleft protection. Registration and fees for regular copyright protection.
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@webmaven right. publish source or binary does not get protection. doable.
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@laurelrusswurm it would not be compulsion if you did away with copyright altogether. Nor if you taxed regular copyright but not Free.
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@laurelrusswurm Perhaps, but works are published now which do not pay royalties. Are they all totally new except for PD inclusions?
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@laurelrusswurm 8. just says to get ARR copyright protection your whole work has to be original. To hear ARR folks talk this is no problem.
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@osamak it’s not about rewriting cultural works. It’s about rewriting the way artists how create culture.
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@arnebab sorry, but how's that?
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@osamak I don’t want to rewrite streets of london. The goal is to be sure that one day all new cultural works will be free licensed.
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@osamak and I think you can’t force that on artists via copyright.
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@zotz Some'd argue that copyleft is more extreme than public domain (copyleft = longer in the public domain)
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@osamak we need to make sure that artists have a better chance at being successful, if they use free licenses.
drew Roberts likes this. -
@osamak working on copyright changes is useful, though. But there you take the big money head on.
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@arnebab Exactly! That was one of the point I got from !Wikimania: http://wikimania2010.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:OsamaK/Personal_notes
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@mlinksva it takes some work trying to grok his "different" use of terms (IP) but after that it isn't so hard to get where he generally is.
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@zotz I thinkt there needs to be some kind of copyright system. If you do away with it altogether something new would step in (prob by MPAA)
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@teddks Sure, but not with Fraud. Can't say someone thinks what they don't. Can't claim you wrote their stuff. But that doesn't need (C) law
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@osamak the how is the hard part. One point: only ever recommend free works ⇒ Make sure that unfree stuff doesn’t as easily go viral.
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@zotz most of the problems i see with copyright seem due to non-creators maximizing their profits; copyright collectives here are as bad...
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@osamak I even think it’s a bad idea to try to force artists via law changes to be free. Else they will backlash — and they are our allies.
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@zotz ...or worse than the media corporations, not serving artists they instead "chill" arts through greed & misuse of unwarranted power
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@arnebab i don't think we need > 5-10 years of copyright (provided everyone else has that time too) for…
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@osamak twitter & co. are community driven, so they allow us to help !freeculture artists. Then artists have an incentive to go free.
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@osamak then use free sources like Battle for Wesnoth to create new free works with very little effort (that’s what I do) ⇒ advantage
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@osamak Huh? Crosbie is not talking PD per se. He is talking no copyright period. Does PD have meaning if there is nothing else?
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@openuniverse I don’t think we need >5 years copyright. But that’s a battle fought on the political playground.
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@openuniverse promoting and reusing free works is something everyone of us can do right now – and make a difference.
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@zotz I am not aware of works published without royalies except #publicdomain and !cc unless possibly bootleg
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@openuniverse and there’s very much derivative art. For example the free RPG book I write uses images from wesnoth ⇒ great artwork, no cost.
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@laurelrusswurm @opentechgirl (not too much, anyway)
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@robmyers microsoft is more extreme- the mpaa is way more extreme (and microsoft is a member, isn't it?)
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@zotz the most wrong things about current copyright is the unlikelihood of much work never making it to the public domain & being lost
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@arnebab yes but it's not exactly the same as endorsing bad copyright- you can work to reform it, even "weaken" its rid…
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@zotz I don't think it is possible to create any work that is not based on anything else unless you're raised by wolves in a cave....
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@mlinksva a little copyright might be better than none when it comes to sw, yes- as some copyleft might…
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@zotz ...and even then the artist would probably be influenced by the wolves cave paintings. Culture permeates and informs us & thus our art
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@openuniverse who endorses bad copyright?
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@zotz be very very careful to not make government "a player" (governments are rushing to secretly implement ACTA w/o visible $ incentives)
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@arnebab pretending it isn't political or ignoring the political nature of it won't change anything, copyright is about politics
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@arnebab exactly what i'm here to do
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@arnebab no one in free sw- that's my point
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@openuniverse for me it’s also not about pretending it isn’t political. It’s about doing things now *and* helping those who work on politics
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@arnebab yeah. as far as the promoting free work, i'm 1000% in agreement. all my music is cc and only a…
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@laurelrusswurm what they have is crazy but still not "good enough" to protect the current copyright set.. No copyright would be better.
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@laurelrusswurm I don't trust my government either, but the government is already a player in copyright by definition.
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@osamak yes but your english is much better than theirs
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@laurelrusswurm I am not sure. Crazy statutory damages for civil offenses and large jail time for non-legit possession are near top 4 me.
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@zotz Government ought to be "above the fray" and they are not, but they will be much worse if they get a piece of the action
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@laurelrusswurm I think you misread me. Unless you think every artist pays other artists royalties.
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@zotz A 2 year copyright term would be OK; 5 year max. Copyright not to be transferable, only licensable, only CREATORS s/b rightsolders
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@laurelrusswurm I feel certain under current law, painters can paint original picture and not owe royalties to prior artists.
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@laurelrusswurm perhaps, but being influenced by a work and having your work be a legal derivative of it are 2 different things.
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@laurelrusswurm perhaps but if Free gets a pas then that is only an issue for the ARR folks. (mostly?)
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@laurelrusswurm so push for abolition and compromise on 2 yr term. No criminal penalties and prove damages.
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@teddks no. Something like the GPLv3 :) – there you have to state that you changed it, and you have to name the original author.
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@arnebab i don't think art should require *electronic* copies of source though. unlike sw, art is far m…
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@openuniverse GPLv3 doesn’t require *electronic* copies. It requires versions in the preferred format for making changes.
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@openuniverse the problem with GPL for some forms of art is that sometimes the sources are much bigger than the result.
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@arnebab if you're certain, we've been arguing about more than reality, and more hypothetical- now i ha…
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@openuniverse But you can always go the wesnoth way: The files are where they make changes ⇒ source = binary. GPL fits.
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@arnebab yeah and good luck finding the source for the mona lisa :) respect the dead, if she even existed
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@openuniverse see the GPL, Terms and Conditions, 1. Source Code. Line 1 → http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html
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@openuniverse you would change the woman for getting a new picture? Isn’t that taking naturalism to the extreme? ;)
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@openuniverse ‘The “source code” for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it’ → gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html
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@arnebab yeah- but that is a legal document written by lawyers in lawyerese specifically tailored to sw…
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@openuniverse not really. Just do it like #cc: add an easy explanation → http://creativecommons.org/licenses/GPL/2.0/ but for !gplv3
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@arnebab but there's no way of knowing if that easy explanation is reasonable or accurate until the experiment goes muc…
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Arne Babenhauserheide
GNU's Not Unix
, Free Software Foundation
, Free Software Foundation Europe
, libreuniverse
@openuniverse that’s missing, yes → !gnu, !fsf and !fsfe: We need a FAQ or guide to using the !GPLv3 for non-software works. Lawyer-checked.
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@arnebab Wasn't there that aerial under gpl3?
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@arnebab agreed- tall order though, you won't likely get the fsf's help on this (and if you think about it, it's tough to blame them)
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@dandart I don’t know. Do you have a link?
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@openuniverse we’ll see if they can help. Until then: http://1w6.org/deutsch/anhang/das-ein-w-rfel-system-jetzt-unter-der-gplv3 —de for !rpg
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@openuniverse you need a translator for that, though, and it isn’t yet checked by a lawyer.
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@arnebab yeah, machine-translated legal advice (literally speaking, or even things approaching it) is not the best idea in the world :)
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@arnebab The Gray Hoverman Antenna was released under GPLv3: http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/design.htm
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@dandart looks great — thanks!
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@arnebab No probs, I believe some music and the OpenSPARC and OpenRISC processor design and firmware were also GPL'd.
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@bkuhn or like SHAC, death threats and kidnap children of Microsoft execs until they quit.
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@laurelrusswurm Sorry, I guess I wasn't a member of the !pp group yet. Also note !uspp group.
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@arnebab How is that?
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@osamak and all #wesnoth artwork is available from their svn repo: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/images/ !gpl
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@arnebab so why GPL instead of CC-BY-SA?
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@osamak 1st wesnoth is GPL. 2nd: GPL has source protection, cc by-sa doesn’t. 3rd: GPL is suited for software ⇒ only one license for all
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@arnebab what's up ? watashi wa abee tan desu
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@abeetan sorry, I don’t understand – my japanese is currently limited to the few words I caught by watching too much fansubbed animé :)
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I take that back, crosbie fitch now parses eg comments on http://ur1.ca/1whcb ~"don't polish the turd, abolish it" ☁
drew Roberts likes this. -
@renata yes! I am excited by your paper's title, but it is not yet online at http://wikis.fu-berlin.de/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=59080767
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@mlinksva Still fixing some details on it. Uploading it soon! We need to CCevangelize the NGO sector in that area!
Mike Linksvayer likes this.
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