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Great blog post by @acruiz: http://ur1.ca/160uh I think Qt is doing it right with QML + QAbstractItemModel. Gtk needs something like that.
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@segphault or maybe people could just use Qt. why wait when what you want is already there, why spend resources on duplicating what exists.
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@aseigo Because you're already entrenched in a specific platform? It's reasonable for Gnome/GTK people to want feature parity sometimes
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@aseigo: if you think you can build consensus around converging the toolkits or getting GNOME to make Qt a first-class citizen, please do.
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@aseigo: but the reality for a lot of third-party devs is that we use both toolkits and want them both to be good.
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@segphault we made Qt a first class citizen on the GNOME desktop. theming, button orders, etc. instead of waiting for hell to freeze over.
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@segphault so start choosing Qt in the future. or don't and hope your toolkit of choice moves quickly enough to keep up.
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@segphault right now, i don't think that's a reality. there aren't enough toolkit hacking resources to go around, and Qt has insane momentum
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@segphault while we all sit and wish, the gap between toolkits has been widening and that isn't going to stop any time soon.
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@aseigo: I use Qt all the time (it *is* my toolkit of choice), but I still have to use Gtk if I want my software to be in GNOME distros
Popa Adrian Marius likes this. -
@segphault that is such a disease as it prevents selecting the best tool for the job; as long as developers support that, it will continue.
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@segphault there's a huge user base for Qt apps. or do gnome users not use skype? it's also part of the LSB.
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@aseigo: You are preaching to choir. Nothing would make me happier than having Qt in default Ubuntu install, but it's not going to happen
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@segphault the reasonable man adapts himself to the world .. yadda yadda? :) personally, i can't accept a future dictated by distros.
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@segphault their incentives are not fully aligned with what is best for the user; neither are developer's. so we need to share the future.
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@aseigo wrt picking the best tool, why did Qt then create their own XML handling libs instead of using libxml ?
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@pxc it's a matter of life cycle cost. how long till parity is achieved? what's the cost of getting there? cheaper to change, more certain?
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@pxc while for some it certainly makes sense (e.g. i'd not advocate inkscape to change anything; to little to gain for too much work) ...
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@pxc for many others, esp those wanting to move to a declarative paradigm, the cost is well made up for.
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@mase API. notice how many 3rd party libs Qt does use (some optionally), including glib?
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@aseigo: the distros choose what technologies win and lose on the desktop right now, and that's a reality that third-party devs will accept
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@aseigo The biggest problem in the distro field is space constraints on the live images that they are pushing and shoving at users
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@aseigo: but mobile ecosystem is eventually going to have more influence in the next few years, so there's still hope for broader Qt support
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@aseigo Until we end up with USB images becoming the "standard", distros are going to keep fscking over users with less and less
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@segphault that _some_ third party devs will accept. it also hasn't changed the fact that KDE still has the larger userbase.
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@aseigo Fedora KDE 14 is gonna be worrisome with me having to ship gtk3, gtk2 and bigger KDE, less and less real *stuff*
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@segphault this whole mythos that "distros dictate" (as opposed to collaborate, both with devs and with the market) needs to put to bed.
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@aseigo Of course, the users push and shove at the distros to *get* those live images as the standard, so it's really *everyone's* fault
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@segphault mobile: go back 2-3 years and we'd be having the exact same convo about mobile as we are about desktop. things shift.
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@rrix sounds to me like the definition of what constitutes a useful live CD versus an installed desktop (or full image) needs revisiting.
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@rrix or that apps need a better way to reliably require dependencies on install. (i'm not a pkger, so won't try to more technical input)
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@rrix IME when a shift in needs from multiple fronts happens, evo is needed. we toss hands in the air and live with inferior too often.
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@aseigo: sure, but until such a change happens on the desktop, it still makes sense for me to support my existing users and Gtk+ code.
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@segphault i won't/can't argue that; i see it as related-but-different from committing future resources to toolkit enhancement.
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@segphault at some point, it becomes more equitable to put a toolkit on life support in the name of existing apps. e.g. motif in the 90s.
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@segphault i don't think it's a perfect analog to "90's motif" yet, but if the next couple of years are anything like the last few ...
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@aseigo: I don't disagree, but it's up to the distros to make that choice. I still need to support Gwibber's 400,000 GNOME users.
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@aseigo qt however might easily lose its momentum. Just imagine Nokia gives up on it. They keep losing money since months now...
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@segphault do you feel it should be just up to the distros to make that choice? or that it's moot & unavoidable due control of production?
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@rugrog it's possible, but improbable. Nokia isn't the only actor and it's committed both Symbian and MeeGo to it (along with Intel)
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@rugrog moreover, this isn't a sudden turn of events, but something that started several years ago.
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@aseigo as a KDE user i don't like running nm-applet even though it is more complete than knetworkmanager
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@rugrog take the state of each toolkit and the devel speed of each over the last 3-5 years. add today's trends. it's not exactly close.
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@aseigo not sure why gnome users would feel any different going the other way
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@aseigo on KDE i specifically try and use KDE apps becauase they use the already loaded libraries.
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@aseigo: if it was up to me, we'd all be using a nice memory-managed language with closures and UI toolkit like QML. I don't get to choose.
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@mase Qt does a fine job of integrating into various platforms, inc. GNOME, making it moot. objecting on religious grounds is irrelevant.
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@aseigo: we all have to make pragmatic choices based on what's available rather than what is ideal.
Steven J Lilley likes this. -
@aseigo i realise that,but my reason is far from religious. I only have 1G of RAM =)
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@aseigo if i load nm-applet under gnome i get a decent portion of gnome too. Likewise with KDE under GNOME
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@segphault i asked if you feel that's how it should be & if you feel that's how it has to be. e.g. is the status quo the best we can have?
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@aseigo which means for a 5MB application i end up using 60MB of RAM
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@aseigo i load up knetworkmanager instead of nm-applet and it uses a few MB of RAM
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@segphault we also have the opportunity to improve on what's available if it is indeed improvable. isn't that axiomatic to Free software?
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@aseigo let's just hope meego will be very successful, otherwise I'm not so certain about companies backing up qt development in the future
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@mase what's the overhead of running nm-applet for you? what's your current amount of free ram? do you use firefox? :)
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@mase right.. a few MB, in trade for a better experience for you. out of 1000MB avail. this century's systems are big enough to make it moot
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@mase if the trade is ++exp for what i want to do, it's completely worth it. else it's like saying "i saved 50 cents eating cat food".
Ryan Rix likes this. -
@rugrog people have been playing that chicken little drum abut Qt for almost 20 years now. :)
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@aseigo i use konq. It's not better experience when my system swaps and it doesn't work like the rest of my desktop.
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@aseigo even under gnome you can identify a QT/KDE application.
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@aseigo it's more than at a toolkit level. The applications need to be able to use what the desktops provide
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@mase like mimetypes, icons, common dbus services, file/print dialogs, etc, etc?
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@aseigo GIMP is a good example. In dolphin i have a remote fish share set up. Gimp apparently can't see it
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@aseigo like wise konq can't see whatever shortcut gnome has established
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@aseigo local files, no worries but it doesn't work with remote files. OpenOffice can't see either
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@aseigo knetworkmanager can't see VPNC profiles set up with nm-applet and vise versa
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@aseigo even font rendering is different between a gnome / kde app...dont' they both use freetype ?
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@mase guess you shouldn't use open office then. ;) progress made in the last years is huge, and more toolkit swapping will bring even more
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@aseigo it's small things but that's what makes the experience ( even if i have enough RAM =)
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@aseigo The older among us remember all these arguments time and time again. There is no winner; there is only change.
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@aseigo i specifically try not to use openoffice ( koffice rocks) but for people like my parents it works for the most part
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@aseigo but it means that they can't use the aweseme webdav ioslave that kde provides
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@mase when do you use knetworkmanager and nm-applet together? that said: http://tinyurl.com/28d2wv2
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@mase the small things today are getting smaller and smaller. it no longer justifies the loss in development time we suffer.
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@jasonriedy Or at least oscillation.
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@aseigo so the GIMP goes, lets support xyz, we'll use QT for this part even though only 3 of the devs are familiar with it?
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@joshix Hush. I'm being opto... opti... optometric? Don't even recall the word.
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@aseigo my point is that I think the gap isn't close enough yet for it not to matter.
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@aseigo thats great wrt network manager
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@mase the same thing i said about inkscape applies to gimp there: the cost isn't worth changing in that case.
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@mase read back to my dents about supporting a toolkit for existing apps versus continuing to invest new devel into it.
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@mase i wonder if there will ever be a kde app that works a little more like gimp than kolourpaint does…
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@aseigo i did read that. But i don't think GTK is that far gone. Besides people who work on GTK probably wouldn't work on Qt
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@aseigo KTHML still lives on despite webkit's existance. webkit kpart also rocks btw
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@openuniverse Krita was heading down that path but they have since stopped. It's still pretty useful
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@openuniverse: what about Krita?
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@aseigo So for some projects, porting to Qt could be cheaper than trying to add the feature to GTK upstream. I can believe that
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@pxc exactly. :) and for many projects starting with Qt would be cheaper for similar reasons. but no blanket statements, just generalities.
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@pxc in particular, the QtQuick stuff (which started this whole thread), is quite a non-trivial kind of thing. compare to flash, e.g.
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@mase it isn't about people working on Gtk. it's about app developers looking for a toolkit.
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@aseigo I'd like to see both of the big free desktops sharing more code, which seems to be happening somewhat lately. If both could ...
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@mase khtml / webkit in parallel has been an unfortunate inefficiency for years. i would personally never use that as a reference point.
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@aseigo: toolkit I want doesn't matter. Distros choose what toolkit they ship, and I have to conform if I want them to include my program.
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@aseigo: can we continue this on IM? I want to show you something off the record that might help you understand my position
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@segphault absolutely :) find me on irc?
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@mase Qt/KDE directly use ~/.fonts.conf; GTK/GNOME will use settings in Gconf over fonts.conf, making rendering different
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@tamasrepus thanks for the info. That explains why it looks different.
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@mase I'd try to erase the relevant settings in Gconf to force GTK/GNOME to use fonts.conf. Working w/ Gconf is a headache, though
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@tamasrepus could i getqt to use the same settings as gnome. Actually don't mind the gnome font rendering.
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@tamasrepus gconf-editor reports the same settings that i'm already using for KDE.
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@mase Never tried… I like having tangible config files (it's sad that XML is more tangible than Gconf) so I keep everything in ~/.fonts.conf
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@tamasrepus nothing wrong with xml so long as your using an xml editor :)
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@mase Hrm, not sure what's going on then. I'd double-check against the contents of ~/.fonts.conf more than relying on systemsettings
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@mase @leorockway yeah, i keep meaning to try it but since i haven't, i never think of it- kind of self…
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@jasonriedy after installation- that's user end though, if you want your project included in the defaul…
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@segphault I love Qt, but QAbstractItemModel is pain. GtkTreeModel is much easier to use IMO. Maybe Qt's approach has benefits I don't see.
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