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@fontana,isn't that a version of "I'm not crazy;it's the world that's crazy"? Isn't it dangerous when one starts down that line of thinking?
Wednesday, 15-Sep-10 00:48:15 UTC from web-
Some thank-yous are in order today! I wrote a blog post thanking #Garrett & @cdibona (for unrelated things): http://ur1.ca/1l4si !GPL !AGPL
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I updated the #Wikipedia page on license proliferation to include #Google's change in position announced by @cdibona yesterday: ur1.ca/1l5sq
Osama Khalid likes this. -
@fontana, I think only NPOs can be trusted to act in public good. Yes,they can make mistakes, which is why I suggest having conjunction of 2
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@fontana,I think such is an argument for my conclusion. Trusting conjunction of 2 methodolgies at once helps ensure right decisions on issue
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@bkuhn That essentially equates to relying on the FSF listing since the conjunction would be that in practice.
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@rahulsundaram, only currently, not historically nor neccessarily always. The point is to have two bodies acting in the public interest.
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@fontana is FSF transparent about "why"? I don't think they ever discuss licenses in public
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@fontana Yep but that isn't exhaustive and very brief. FSF could work on more transparency
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@fontana I advocated to FSF to take Fedora's listing and add descriptions but they weren't too keen on that
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@fontana, I agree that happens with OSI sometimes. I'm not an OSI fan by any means, but it's the only other NPO that tries to do this.
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@rahulsundaram, FSF is as transparent as it can be with the very limited resources it has. Most licenses have at least a brief description.
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@bkuhn FSF's listing is very small. doesn't cover majority of licenses. Nothing prevents a public license discuss mailing list afaik
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@rahulsundaram,if #FSF had staff to moderate such a discussion,it'd probably have one. If it had more resources to review licenses,it would
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@mjray Can't agree with that. Programmers shouldn't be making license decisions without the help of lawyers
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@rahulsundaram, Sorry I sound aggressive, but it's really annoying when for-profit-big-corporate folks criticize NPOs for "not doing enough"
Will Kahn-Greene likes this. -
@bkuhn I don't think it is primary a resource shortage issue. It has reviewed all licenses in Fedora's listing
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@fontana, #disturbing today. Today is unusual for me to; I sat up in bed and reloaded the replies list in #mustard & started replying.
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@rahulsundaram, I'm on #FSF's board. I know very intimately that FSF is blocked on doing more licensing stuff specifically b/c of resources.
Richard Fontana likes this. -
@bkuhn Isn't it equally annoying that you equate my opinions with "for-profit big corporate folks"
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@rahulsundaram,you do work for a big for-profit corporation,don't you? :) Things you take for granted happening at your org are hard at NPOs
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@bkuhn Like I said, all of the licenses in Fedora's listing is reviewed and approved by FSF. OSI is in fact much slower.
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@rahulsundaram, yeah, but going back & writing more re: them is a big job. OSI's slower b/c it has *fewer* resources than #FSF. See pattern?
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@bkuhn Who I work for is irrelevant when I am expressing my personal opinions. I don't take anything on this for granted
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@fontana, ZOMG! You said that & immediately I started making up lyrics to #South_Park's "What would Brian Boitano Do?" but w/ facts re: @rms
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@fontana I am not sure that is a principle to be relied on. What happens once he is no more? Sort of becomes religious
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@rahulsundaram, sorry I assumed, but, still, it's a common error: people of all sorts assume #FSF is akin resources-wise to,say, #Red_Hat.
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@rahulsundaram #debian has access to lawyers, but do you know any fast enough not to stall development? Needs must.
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@mjray, yeah, I know it is & I fully understand resources constraints. My main concern is the somewhat unilateral power ftp-masters have.
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@rahulsundaram,I've spent a decade building an @rms -emulator in my brain & continue to work on it. In practice,it's currently ~90% accurate
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@mjray I understand Debian's limitations but can't agree with current methodology as reliable. Known history of bad decisions on occasion
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@bkuhn I hope you document the methodology before you get eaten by raptors
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@rahulsundaram bug tracker exists methodology known unreliable. Good decisions > bad so far. How to improve w/o stalling?
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@rahulsundaram, That's why I keep a blog. :) @fontana, #FSF could do better w/ more resources, but I think we do pretty good on that now.
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@bkuhn #FSF has open membership and board accountable to them now? See http://www.debian.org/intro/organization#distribution
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@mjray Fedora's method seems to largely rely on FSF as far as copyright licensing is concerned. Debian is unlikely to follow that pattern
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@mjray,No & neither does #Debian. You have to prove yourself to existing leaders to be a Debian dev. #FSF leadership is structured similarly
Rob Myers likes this. -
@fontana Interesting. What happens if FSF makes a different decision later from Fedora on particular licenses?
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@fontana I don't generally agree much with Bruce Perens but in this case, I tend to agree with him. Too many troublesome and bad licenses
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@rahulsundaram, I agree w/ that: we should avoid oddball licenses. But @fontana's right too: we need to understand their !FaiF -ness anyway.
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@bkuhn I hope people stop creating more licenses unnecessarily. If they exist and get used, of course, we need to determine their status
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@bkuhn No, #debian leaders explicitly prohibited from deciding membership. http://www.debian.org/devel/constitution#item-8
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@bkuhn I define leaders as leaders??? Voting #debian Developership has open policy http://www.debian.org/devel/join/newmaint unlike #FSF
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@mjray, I must get back to work,so I'll put this simply: #There_is_No_Cabal! If there were, I wouldn't be a voting member & Director of #FSF
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@mjray, #FSF is very clear that donors are "Associate Members" & it's well defined in filing docs. Go read it! Recruitment is a red herring.
Rob Myers likes this. -
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this.
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@bkuhn: Love the irony of Canonical complaining about cabals. ;)
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@bkuhn That's just scary. Makes me think of "Harvey" in Farscape. Can you control when it runs and when not? ;-)
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@fontana I think license proliferation is not very relevant outside FLOSS; Code sharing as a inherent benefit to us.
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@rahulsundaram err don't you feel that the 140 characters are stifling the conversation ? Why don't you blog and discuss in comments ?
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@sankarshan This is much more distracting and fun!
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@rahulsundaram Lord ! You @bkuhn and @fontana seem to be talking over two days in compressed semantics ;)
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@rahulsundaram true #debian looks at #fsf lists but doesn't blanket accept. Less accountable+it endorses non-#foss like fdl
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@mjray I was hoping Debian would consult FSF on new licenses. Blanket acceptance not necessary nor warranted.
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@rahulsundaram @mjray As does Debian - http://www.debian.org/News/2006/20060316
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@sankarshan, this is what passes for me & @fontana having a life. Welcome to our world of pathological #FLOSS obsession!
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@rahulsundaram sometimes #debian legal does. Not sure what proportion. Often first reaction to new licence is suggest GPL or MIT/X11
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@mjray I haven't heard anything about the SFDL for ages. :-( I fear that the Wikipedia relicencing may have reduced pressure for it. :-(
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@bkuhn LoL ! This is the first time I see a multi day conversation.
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@sankarshan Me @bkuhn and @fontana have done it before and they do it quite often between themselves it seems.
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@bkuhn I dispute the "little" in that statement :-)
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