Conversation
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@fontana I keep assuming you're still at the SFLC. D'oh!
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@fontana Exiled to RH HQ? How's the theater district?
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@fontana I'm interested in whether it makes any sense to fix that in some years with the eventuality of CC BY 4.0
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@mlinksva you believe they aren't compatible?
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@bkuhn wish for #creativecommons: #cc-by and #cc-by-sa should be !GPL compatible. They should have made them compatible from the start…
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@michaeldexter, Goodness! If ppl still assume @fontana works for !SFLC so many years later, how long will it be bf. they realize *I* don't.
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@michaeldexter, @fontana doesn't work at #Red_Hat HQ. Lucky for him, since I've heard it sucks. He's at the #MA suburban office w/ @spot.
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@fontana But do they think you *work* at FSF? :-)
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@fontana: Here's CC's compatibility wizard (tm) - http://is.gd/gYiNd
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@otter the lack is not a problem. modified bsd lacks copyleft and is gpl compatible. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html
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@fontana, But having worked for !FSF is something worth being very proud of (I know I am :). I'm not so proud of other parts of my resume…
Osama Khalid likes this. -
@bkuhn But a lot of guys work as Chippendales when they're young... #TryingToStartARumor
Evan Prodromou and Craig Maloney like this. -
@jzb: You know, that whole Chippendales gig might explain a few things. ;)
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@osamak I'm not certain, but I imagine 4(a)'s anti-DRM language might be a problem http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/legalcode
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@bkuhn good to hear that!
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@fontana please explain! of course CC-BY is compatible with CC-BY-SA, that's certainly CC view.
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@robmyers @fontana thats from CC Taiwan, site seems to be having problems, but I believe it's accurate. Here's officious http://ur1.ca/2c1xp
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@fontana please argue
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@otter no, we're talking about one-way GPL compatibility, which GPL as recipient; no chance of 2-way for either CC-BY or CC-BY-SA with GPL
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@arnebab CC-BY doesn't allow specifying "any type of attribution". Read 4a/b http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/legalcode
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@fontana is there a "measure of legalese" akin to readability index/grade level assessments? Hmm, I guess could just run those on licenses.
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@fontana in any case I hope you comment on this when CC eventually does 4.0, or before
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...and it is sad that mistake of yet another incompatible copyleft license in domain with lots more overlap is vintage 2009 (ODBL) :-(
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@mlinksva: ODbL is compatible to the extent that if you use it right you can produce BY-SA work from it. And it covers areas BY-SA doesn't.
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@fontana Really? Isn't CC0 disclaiming of any creator rights? I wonder why they'd put in a no sublicense clause?
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@mlinksva @robmyers @fontana the compatibility wizard at CC Taiwan site is back online http://creativecommons.org.tw/licwiz/english.html
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@fontana IANAL, all CC licenses do not grant rights to sublicense. A good thing, IMHO, as all recipients get same rights from the source.
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@fontana there is a distinction between sublicensing copies of CC works (cannot do), and CC-licensing derivatives of CC works (encouraged)
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@robmyers i didn't go anywhere when i need it. I'm not sure that i get you. Let me know! Im also searching!
Mike Linksvayer and Christopher Allan Webber like this. -
@bkuhn I strongly agree. Unfortunately s/b goes around telling different.
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Bradley M. Kuhn
GNU Affero General Public Licence
, The GNU General Public License
, Richard Fontana
@fontana, I don't think !GPLv3 / !AGPLv3 compatibility weakens either copyleft. Is that what you are saying or did I misunderstand?
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@bkuhn Is there any way to make MPL a GPL-Compatible? (I mean, to add relicensing clause) They are revisiting it now. There is a need IMO
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@gnufreex Need being: They already triple-license, so why not add re-licensing clause and use only MPL?
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@bkuhn I know that. See the dent below.
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@bkuhn If you can't see it, I mean this one http://identi.ca/notice/58519706 and by "they" I meant Mozilla foundation.
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@gnufreex, my advice to #Mozilla would be to write an exception set to #GPLv3 that explained exactly the permissions they wanted to grant.
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
Bradley M. Kuhn
GNU Affero General Public Licence
, The GNU General Public License
, Richard Fontana
@fontana, I agree !AGPLv3 copyleft weakens itself for !GPLv3 compatibility. I don't believe that the inverse of that statement is true.
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@bkuhn Same with me. They probably want "per file" copyleft, and they want to be GPL-compatible so they 3-license. But they could fuse those
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@bkuhn ... In MPL v2 with relicensing clause. (You know that they are revisiting MPL now, do you?)
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Bradley M. Kuhn
GNU Affero General Public Licence
, The GNU General Public License
, Richard Fontana
@fontana,Sure, but only in theory. In practice, !AGPLv3 copyleft is stronger & !GPLv3 code combining w/ as a whole has stronger avg copyleft
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@fontana, the only rational explanation for licensing something disjunctively both with LGPL *and* GPL is symbolism, so that must be it.
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@bkuhn Agree. Companies can modify only their files and never add anything under MPL. And GPL incomp' makes problem for Free World.
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@fontana, I'm bothered by idea some might think LGPL and GPL are somehow incompatible. Oh wait, um, well, when the version number matches :)
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@fontana, I've seen it #problematic in some places. Worst part:it was easy to fix,if those in control of GPLv3 hadn't completely ignored me.
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@fontana or btw definition = "extent to which req same license" vs = "extent to which results in more freedom via free license req"
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@bkuhn design goal precedes implementation; but sure, design goal would result in explicit compatibility clause :-)
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@fontana no sublicensing impacts verbatim works; that would be asymptotically non-copyleft, not even worth thinking of as copyleft, no?
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@robmyers I appreciate the mitigation offered by produced works clause; still overlap way too great to justify incompatible copyleft
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@robmyers ps I realize parts of CC's copyleft aversion and my not paying attention in the relevant domain has not be helpful. #workingonit
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@mlinksva: I think the separation of concerns (data/creative works) actually works well, but as a copyleft fan I'd prefer just 1 licence.;-)
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@mlinksva hm, you’re right. contradicts “You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor” in the deed :(
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@bkuhn it seems to be – in the legalese, 4 a/b (thanks to @mlinksva ). Just the deed differs… creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/legalcode
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@fontana what do they do?
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@bkuhn from your exp, could #cc-by-sa to be adapted to be !gpl compatible (“or similar license” → creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ )
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@fontana I’d like something like that in the default #cc-by-sa… ( in reply to http://identi.ca/notice/58601016 )
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@fontana maybe they changed it, i.e. learned to do it in a good way :)
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@fontana oh, ok – I didn’t know that :) → kudos!
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@arnebab, I've opined on this yesterday: w/out an explicit relicensing clause, it's extremely difficult, to make 2 copylefts compatible.
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@bkuhn does difficult mean impossible, improbable or “we’d need many people to review”?
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@fontana @brettcsmith,as 2 great minds in #copyleft thought, I'm curious if you agree w/ what I wrote regarding cross-copyleft compatibility
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@bkuhn OK. Many thanks for your info! I hope we’ll get it at some point… I’d like to reuse cc-by-sa in GPL programs without separation…
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@bkuhn If there’s something I can do to help with it, please feel free to ask.
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@bkuhn My problem is that cc-by-sa is applied to software as soon as the image is an SVG or the designer creates a font.
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@bkuhn I personally got hit by it, because I write a roleplaying system under GPL. Can I include by-sa images? And text? Wikipedia?
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@bkuhn: Yes people make far too much of BY-SA/GPL (in-)compatibility.
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@fontana right, though practical diff between including verbatim in GPL work under permissions of permissive license, and GPLing?
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@fontana ... I guess simplicity is one. I see that most free software licenses explicitly allow sublicensing or are silent, except GPL
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@fontana I'm not sure of theory behind no-sublicensing in all CC licenses, but will attempt to find out
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@fontana ... it seems to be very rarely discussed, only substantial thread I found http://ur1.ca/2cjf2 featuring @zotz @robmyers ;-)
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@fontana thanks for that and in advance!
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@arnebab I don't know it directly contracts, not as arbitrarily specified, but yes, accuracy, precision, and readability #problematic
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@bkuhn It's not going to happen automatically but it would be a smart way for javadoc-generated texts to be licensed, for example
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@mlinksva if the artists specifies „you must attribute me with an at least 100px high logo of my company“ but I rescale the vid to 90px…
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@mlinksva I wouldn’t have to comply because the legalese says I don’t, but the artists would assume I’d have to.
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@robmyers GPL/BY-SA incompatibility isn't a huge deal, but it is rarely even mentioned, don't think "people make far too much" of it
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@arnebab ppl should rel images, other assets under BY-SA if really want to add to copyleft art universe. As they should rel sw under GPL...
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@arnebab problem in theory but in practice I've not seen attempts to specify egregious attribution.
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@mlinksva: or dual licence non code content with gpl and by-sa?
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@ruiseabra sure; I'd just argue for non-code by-sa is the requirement. disjunctive multilicense with whatever else you want. :-)
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@mlinksva Oh yes it's rare its ever mentioned. And I've never seen it be a practical problem.
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@mlinksva what do you do when art and code blends? SVGs for example, or fonts?
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@mlinksva the problem is that this is a conflict between what the legal code says and what the deed says.
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@mlinksva: Well there was http://is.gd/h4E0T ;-) But yes that's an interesting thought experiment. Is Wikipedia an example?
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@robmyers I do recall GNUArt. Wikipedia too late and not GPL of course. I said pre-"open content" (1998) for reason: time req to build up.
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@arnebab I don't have the answers. Interesting problems, and prob will be significant eventually. For now, dual GPL/BY-SA when rly needed?
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@arnebab re fonts, u prob know they're a weird case of their own. http://dave.lab6.com/dave_crossland_matd2008_dissertation.pdf by @davelab6
Richard Fontana likes this. -
@mlinksva @fontana Terms of Service may ask users to sublicense which is a major pain http://blog.pinang.org/post/2010/05/15/TOSnPL (plug!)
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@fontana Why does it have to start seeing my blank dvd's. Odd bug
Christopher Allan Webber likes this. -
@fontana oh right. Do you think it was before sp 1. Leave it to 11 in the fall. It was all i want to see you on 10.5 or 4.5?
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@fontana something about the world antepenultimate is simply awesome
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@fontana, seriously? I never heard that. Still "penultimate" sounds haughty. I had a asshole boss use it once to indicate I was to be fired.
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@fontana Glad I did not hear that. That would be extremely confusing...
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@mlinksva: Sure but WP was big and switched from a GNU licence to a CC one.
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@mlinksva: I think there'd be tensions around performance and other aspects of (c) the GPL doesn't cover. And the problem of what source is.
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@mlinksva: But, if I can descend into self-parody here a moment, possibly the pure-copyleft momentum would have overridden any calls for NC.
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@zotz Sorry for late comment. Any reference to this weakness?
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@clacke http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-community/2009-June/004742.html looking for more on the lists for you.
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@zotz Great links, very informative. Thanks!
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@clacke you're welcome
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