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@bkuhn Are these real? http://z505.com/gng/cult.htm
- László Torma likes this.
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@highvoltage, I can confirm it's my salary before !SFLC pay cuts (their 2008 990 doesn't even list my salary b/c it was so low: ur1.ca/2p8ww
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@highvoltage, meanwhile, commentary at that URL has many errors & confusions. I urge you to read 990s of NPO's & make your own conclusions.
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@highvoltage, BTW, I'd finally note that a family income of $100k/year in !NYC is only middle class, esp. if you need a cockroach-free apt.
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@highvoltage, if you're interested in NPO salaries, see this spreadsheet: ur1.ca/2p91d Linux_Foundation & Mozilla are the most interesting.
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@highvoltage: I'm not sure if that's real or not, but the SFLC seems to be a for-profit law firm, so those amounts don't seem excessive.
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
http://gitorious.org/floss-foundations/npo-public-filings/trees/master vital floss ngo governance work by @bkuhn #opendata #transparency
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@bkuhn As a fellow NPO worker, I would point out that if you want people to do things in a capitalistic society, you have to support them
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@bkuhn That is, it doesn't make much sense to say "we love the commons enough to give $$" and then get upset when people live off that $$
drew Roberts likes this. -
@hexmode, yeah, I agree. I'm troubled when NPO workers are overpaid (e.g., some get $500k/year!), but at $150k/year & under I'm not troubled
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@bkuhn I understand you want to be diplomatic. Frankly: Commentary at that URL is naive, immature, and utterly stupid BS. @highvoltage
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@mfoetsch, yeah, I agree & I've no need to be diplomatic; I was just limited to 140 chars. :) But reading 990s is a *good* thing, regardless
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@bkuhn the disconnect comes from people where $150k a big deal (e.g. RedState or India, but not SF or NYC) b/c they are a large % of the $$.
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@bkuhn Did that when I first donated to FSF yrs. ago. They link to their 990 and to CharityNavigator.org. Found lots of useful info there.
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@bkuhn there are some tricks if both middle class families manage to put away 10% though...
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@mlinksva,if you have orgs that I should add to that list,let me know. I was trying to get all Free Software/Open Source & Free Culture orgs
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@fontana, you're technically correct on that point about #SFLC. It's a bit annoying @highvoltage started this thread & now ignores it.
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@hexmode,yeah,many have argued to me NPO's should only be based in places where living expenses are cheap for this reason. I'm not convinced
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@bkuhn I'm not ignoring it, looking over it again I can't see anything that required/warranted a response? Let me know and I will gladly.
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@highvoltage, I'm very curious why you asked in the first place & if you felt any of the salaries there (or at any NPO) were unreasonable.
Benoit St-André likes this. -
@highvoltage It's a person calling @rms and the !FSF a cult based on their own MS Paint adventures. Do the math on your own.
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@bkuhn Whats your reasoning for that? If you COL was lower, you could be paid less, and more $ could go to the NPO.
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@x1101 As someone who works remotely in a relatively cheap place to live, I can tell you that there are advantages to an NPO in the city
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@x1101, I don't think it's legitimate to blackball workers from an NPO b/c they live in a major metro area where (e.g.) one needs no car.
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@bkuhn Oh, I didnt mean to black ball workers, I only mean to encourage living where COL is less. And possibly working from home if possible
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@x1101 it comes down to how the economy works. Workers are a resource. Better workers are scarcer. NPOs are not exempt from this logic.
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@hexmode possibly. But (often) one takes a position with an NPO because they believe in the work, not just for the salary.
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@x1101 We wouldn't want NPOs to exploit people's idealism. NPO workers shouldn't have to defend themselves for earning a decent living.
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@x1101 Sure, idealism is worth a few $$ -- I'm willing to sacrifice $X if I can get a job that fits my ideals. But the tradeoff has limits.
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@x1101 By which I mean that idealism is over-valued by those who aren't willing to work for it, but are willing to donate.
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@mfoetsch that isnt my intent at all. I was simply saying that it might be benificial to minimize what a 'decent' living is.
drew Roberts likes this. -
@hexmode I agree. I am *NOT* advocating paying NPO workers less because they deserve less.
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@x1101 ok, but living in a lower cost of living area & working away from others are "intangibles" that are beyond some idealists
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@bkuhn should it at least be a deciding factor between two equally strong candidates?
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@bkuhn Weird, my last identica message to you just dissapeared completely. Just wanted to let you know that it wasn't me who deleted it.
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@x1101 Why not say, a decent living is whatever they'd make in the same capacity in the for-profit world? (Limited by orga efficiency.)
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@zotz, I generally find that filling non-profit positions in FLOSS world is actually quite quite tough. There's often one right person.
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@bkuhn In which case, that's the one you go with or do without. Right?
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@hexmode I asked the question, but I am not sure that "sure" is really that simple of an answer. there may be more nuance needed.
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@zotz "sure" is simplistic, it just assumes the *only* difference between candidates was COL and the resulting compensation.
manav Parekh likes this. -
@hexmode http://mah.everybody.org/resume.html might be out of date (just curious which NPO(s))
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@zotz no idea what you're referring to, please expand.
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@mfoetsch sounds reasonable &ppl love to state when wanting $$$ but can be red herring. lots of NPO jobs/skills don't map 1:1 to FPO ones.
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@mlinksva It is, thanks for the reminder. Currently, Wikimedia. Previously, IntraHealth working on OSS for developing countries.
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... in any case huge amount of comp data available (usually neither free nor gratis unfortunately), that's the relevant test
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@mlinksva No jobs/skills map to any other jobs/skills, so fair compensation is a difficult question. NPO worker shouldn't equate "low-paid".
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@bkuhn while true, it says a lot about tinyness and insularity of FLOSS world. Challenge & opportunity.
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@mfoetsch not saying it should be (eg CC, where I presently work, pays pretty well), just that FPO=NPO is too simplistic
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... and any org (F or NPO) ought be cognizant of limits of purely financial incentives to paper over other messed upness.
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@bkuhn nor bc they don't live in one of a select few major metro areas in a rich country. :)
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@hexmode You haven't worked since Nov 2009? Actually, I haven't since Jan 2010. I liked your openweblog site a la LiveJournal
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@elliek: I've been working just haven't updated my resume :)
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@mlinksva 2 families. making = adj for COL. each saves 10%. live the same. at retirement both move to the same cheap country. who lives > ?
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@hexmode right. but even there. those in a country with > COL might prefer to hire someone from their country. same 4 country w/ > COL ??
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@mfoetsch what if you could hire 10 people for the cost of 1 person. decent living in each case. just different locations?
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@hexmode perhaps not in all cases though. money and motivation and partly volunteer organizations can be strange bedfellows.
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@fontana, yes, I am the person currently maintaining that org-salaries/npo-filings thing on gitorious: http://ur1.ca/2pltg
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@fontana, IMO,anyone making more than $150k/year is overpaid b/c I've never even gotten close to that & I live in most expensive city in USA
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@bkuhn LOL. True. Are you still coming to FOSDEM, BTW?
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@bkuhn I don't care to be honest. There are a lot of people making A LOT MORE money. Complain about those first, I say.
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@bkuhn I will complain when you own a yacht. But only if you don't take me out with it from time to time.... ;)
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@fabsh, I don't really want any luxury items. The only wasteful spending I have is I probably buy prepared foods too much; no time to cook.
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@fabsh, well,working in non-profits, you're asking the PUBLIC to pay your salary. That's a different kind of accountability than for-profits
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@bkuhn Still. Same rules apply IMO.
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@fabsh, plus, to be honest, I am not sure whether I want the #TSA to touch my balls again. I mean, what if they hire a Narwhal to screen me?
Richard Fontana likes this. -
@bkuhn Yeah, I know. I figured $400 would be enough for Dan.
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@bkuhn Hahahaha! Yeah, I know you hate flying as much as me... Maybe if more people donate we can fly you out too, though. :)
nybill likes this. -
@bkuhn maybe Public Library of Science, Internet Archive. non-US would be super interesting too, but I guess that would incr scope too much.
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@mlinksva, thanks, I was going to try to pull in all the 2009s in a few weeks. I figured by end of 2010, they'd all be available somewhere.
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@mlinksva, well, I'd be grateful for someone to do non-USA orgs, but my familiarity with reading 990s is what makes it easy for me to do USA
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@bkuhn Still a shame. Hope to meet you again, soon. :)
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@fabsh, it's ok. I may be in Europe this year yet; RMLL might have funding for me to come there, if you fancy coming to France in July.
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@bkuhn Will have a look. Paris?
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@bkuhn: I, for one, wouldn't mind to be as overpaid as possible. 150k seems like a nice start. At this pace it'll take me some time ... lots
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@bkuhn "TSA: Cupping the balls of Freedom since 2010."
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@zotz 10 seems unrealistic—but sure, if more ppl makes sense and you can get 'em, etc., why not. I don't say expensive places are better ;-)
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@mlinksva It's simplistic, I agree. Maybe comes down to: There are diverse forces that (should) influence salaries, whether NPO or FPO.
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@bkuhn metabrainz foundation http://www2.guidestar.org/organizations/20-1644586/metabrainz-foundation.aspx#
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Interesting personal donation rule in http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2011/03/14/thoughts-on-japan/ that @bkuhn might like
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@mlinksva,yes,I find those #RedCross salaries #disturbing; Even in an extremely expensive city like NYC,those salaries make 'em filthy rich
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