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My take on #Fedora and what I think about its identity or crisis thereof: http://outl.ws/i3um2b #blog !lo !fedoradesign
- Andy C likes this.
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@mo6020 Me too, although the real point of the post is to point out that we have to decide. That's most important IMHO.
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@mo6020 Thank you. :)
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@fabsh Like you said, we can't be everything to everyone... I use Fedora because of the control I get over everything
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@mo6020 Yeah, I totally agree. It affords a lot of power while still being relatively easy to use and freedom-focused too.
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@fabsh Is the reason we can't serve >1 audience a lack of resources? Otherwise why not power-user/dev underneath, best-skin-ever on top?
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Fedora for work, Arch for playtime!
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@quaid Because you can't have freedom AND all the drivers/codecs. You also can't put systemd in without testing it more...
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@quaid There are some things you just can't do at the same time. We need to accept that, IMO.
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@mo6020 That would be a damn nice combination.
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@nisshh I combine them by running Fedora on my work laptop and Arch on my systems at home ;)
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@mo6020 Yes, i figured, cool that your workplace lets you run whatever you like on your (workstation?) at work though. :)
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@nisshh Yeh it's pretty cool, I should be running Vista on my laptop, but as long as I can get email and intranet they don't care...
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@mo6020 Hahaha.... Sweet. :)
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@mo6020 Better than my crappy windows-only college, all i got to use linux for (Fedora) was web design. :(
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@fabsh I confess, I still have a Vista partition on here for when Outlook webaccess decides to break...
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@mo6020 *mental note filed*
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@mo6020 I hate Webexchange. That stuff is the plague.... Xx
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@nisshh Of course you'll have to give up your soul, and become a cynical, twisted, bitter creature. But at least you'll get to run Linux..
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@richslxh Yeah. Makes no sense for Fedora to go that route, IMHO. But what we need most is a clear vision, not all that PC PR-speak BS.
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@fabsh I agree, we don't need another Ubuntu, Ubuntu has that covered, Fedora is and should be a stand-out power user distro
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@vk7hse I don't think that's true.
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@richslxh Except many of these are Red Hat people.
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@fabsh i don't think is "Red Hat versus community", is just that some people are "more equal" giving their employer and friends/colleagues
Jesús E. Franco Martínez likes this. -
@quaid you can serve >1 audience if your audiences are closed or related, you can't optimize for 2 divergent things at the same time
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@nicubunu Yeah, that's definitely the case.
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@fabsh Good thought provoking piece. I would have commented, if I'd seen it earlier, but all my points have already been made in this thread
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@fabsh Nice blog. Personally, I chose Fedora because of "Freedom and Features First". If that changes I'll be forced to find a new distro.
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I think !fedora's identity is: the #distro which offers a full featured introduction to GNU/Linux and facilitates the growth of power users.
Jesús E. Franco Martínez likes this. -
Really hoping this dust-up in the !Fedora community doesn't devolve into a Debian-esque pursefight.
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@silner Thanks. :)
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@ddevine I like the 'growth of power users' bit. Exploration, tweaking, everything is there if you go looking.
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@sbanwart I choose it because it's currently a great power user distro without being uncomfortably hard to use.
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@nicubunu Does any of that reputation follow from being the distro used by Linus Torvalds?
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@trashbird1240 i think is the other way, Linus used #fedora for what it was, but he changed a lot of defaults AFAIK
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@mairin A person who likes to fine tune details of their computer that normal users don't want to.
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@mairin Someone who sees a computer as more than a tool and is interested in how it works and how to customise it.
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@mairin I know it is. My point is that *too much* is covered by that missive.
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@mairin I've heard that said by a few people. Or they definitely alluded to it.
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@nailuj ACK, +1
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@mairin I thought the scope was "anyone that voluntarily switches"?
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@mairin Oh god, I wish I could tell you... Some of this was in IRC, mind you...
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@mairin Seriously, I wish I could name names. I will have to start keeping a diary on this stuff...
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@elnushio Ugh, comment got cut off. "To say that Fedora is owned or controlled by Red Hat is insulting for the actual Fedora contributors"
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@fabsh I agree that there needs to be a target audience, I disagree with saying that Red Hat controls Fedora (despite the # of RH in Fedora)
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@elnushio You can disagree all you want, but to me it's clear. If you don't see that you're blind IMO.
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@fontana Don't tell me I get sued next.... ;)
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@fabsh If there's a huge number of RHs in the board, it's because we(Fedora Contirbutors) put them there. Anyone can join the board.
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@elnushio I don't really care *why* it's the case. I study politics and honestly the pattern of power distribution in Fedora is clear.
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@mairin I think we should try to be the best development platform out there. Make upstream, features and freedom priority.
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@mairin Which means having the guts to tell people who see computers as a tool to get a job done "Fedora is not for you."
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@fontana It's definitely harder to use than Ubuntu. The missing nvidia drivers are a great case to show that.
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@fabsh agreed.. although, don't exclude anyone.. target group != the only group that uses it :>
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@mairin I am not upset. I am pointing out a general direction in the community and I don't need to point to a specific person to do it.
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@mairin If you think I'm full of shit, disprove my argument factually and don't shoot it down on a meta level. :)
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@fontana I think so too. The fact that RHT has control doesn't bother me at all and I said so in my post.
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@bdesmet I never said that. :)
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@bdesmet I don't want to exclude people. I installed Fedora for my mum and she most certainly is NOT a target user even now.
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@bdesmet Still, target definitions are good to have. If they are useful.
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@fabsh exactly what I mean :)
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@mairin Developers are by definition power users because they *have* to know how the system works. They are developing for it after all...
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@mairin Some early board discussion sounded like we were headed 4 U-lite. I didn't like that, may have even blogged on it.
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@mairin That was months ago, it would take hours I don't have to dig it out.
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@fontana Yeah, I do as well. "Normal" users don't, though. They usually don't run ThinPads either.... ;)
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@mairin maybe Fedora EMEA != Fedora US. That was certainly one of the things I noticed at FOSDEM.
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@jwildeboer @mairin Fedora EMEA definitely !== Fedora US. Fedora EMEA is more like fedora.us </not-funny>
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Ordinary users don't care about init systems, as long as they work
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@wb8rcr @mairin Google says: http://lwn.net/Articles/358865/
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@mcepl There are people employed by Red Hat and people who aren't. That's a fact.
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@richslxh way ahead of you on that one
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@mcepl "There isn't Red Hat, just people" - funny, and not true
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@nicubunu There's those in control and those that need control to continue what they've been doing for years...
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@nicubunu People repeat that as if it's true, but where's the proof? Has anyone tried *with enough resourcing*?
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@fabsh Sure, there are conditions & situations that can't be done, esp. when under-resourced. Not "can't", more "won't/hasn't".
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@quaid Isn't only Red Hat people arguing against it some form of proof in itself? Not aimed at any individual at Red Hat though...
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@quaid If Fedora is going to try that, I'm off for Debian. That ship is only going down....
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@mcepl I thought you said there isn't we, just people?
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@fabsh I've just heard for years about what is/isn't possible, & I see it more of a resource issue, less as a fundamental "is broke".
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@kanarip not when RHT makes a practice of hiring contributors. It's an argument designed to avoid refutation. No point in engaging IMHO.
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@quaid Who's to say something is under-resourced? I can get resources am still not allowed to Get Shit Done(TM)
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@stickster As said; not about any one individual, but about RHT; continuously arguing there's no problem at all doesn't make it so.
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@kanarip I see more truth in Hanlon's razor than not. Otherwise, I'll admit to not really knowing what you mean; got data?
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@stickster What's wrong with discussing this? I have said from the start that I don't see a problem there, but it's definitely a pattern.
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@stickster as, btw, arguing there is a problem somewhere achieves exactly the same; nothing.
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@mcepl Where did I say that? I think you are putting words in my mouth to be honest.
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@mcepl I never said that wasn't the case, I know any respect a lot of Red Hat people, it's a great company and I have said so in the post.
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@quaid I would agree with that. I've said before that I think RHT needs to put more resources into the desktop.
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@quaid It's in the archives, in comments on blogs, there's a "meme" if you will, extended over a significant period of time
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@fabsh Your post seemed pretty fair to me. RHT is always a potential elephant in the room, but I don't think it's always in the room.
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@quaid wrt. RHT/elephant/room, indeed it is not always in the room, as a positive.
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@quaid I agree. Maybe I should have worded it more careful. I also confuse issues possibly, which doesn't help. You live and learn...
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@quaid: example in case, Microsoft is building Windows as everything for everybody, Apple with Mac started with a niche and grew from there
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@nicubunu W/ layers (plumbing, CLI userspace, different desktops) + spins + resources, we can support multiple audiences.
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@quaid It's all over the place, but examples: http://tinyurl.com/6ld2gth http://tinyurl.com/24nznsz I suppose you can Google for more
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@quaid Hiring upstream developers notwithstanding (for the most part), some positions in charge of X are / have become the brick walls.
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@quaid when we attempt to provide localized spins to local ambassadors, they can only be called Fedora Remix, and cannot be printed
Jesús E. Franco Martínez likes this. -
@kanarip Evolution of Fedora has seen improvement, but anyone can mess up how they do community interaction. Sorry it feels unfixable.
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@quaid it is, unfixable. it is hurtful, too, to then hear people argue it's not RHT. Again, no individual here, but NASDAQ:RHT.
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@quaid Things have been great in the community management area, outside of This One Big Thing.
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@quaid effictively we in EMEA need s/o from RHT to be go-to person. Max did that, now there is a void, so now probs stack up w/o decision.
Jeroen van Meeuwen likes this. -
@quaid quite sometimes US fedora is commandeering, not catalysing. See trademark issue. Respect is lost that way.
Jeroen van Meeuwen likes this. -
@quaid OTOH due to missing directions Fedora EMEA also doe sthings that are not OK. Both sides make mistakes, but solving them is ignored
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@jwildeboer if you're referring to e.V. someone may have forgotten to tell us we can rename to something like "Friends of ~"... :/
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@kanarip I am not big friend of formalised entities like e.V., typically distracts energy and waste it for formal BS. Prefer actual work.
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@jwildeboer you know me. all about actual work. e.V. was means to a goal, not a goal in itself. decapitation means no actual work though.
Gerard Braad — 吉拉德 likes this. -
@kanarip afaik that's not an option, which might be why it doesn't come up. IANAL and all that.
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@stickster france was told it might be, still needs legal ACK. france meanwhile makes preparations. f-ups keep accumulating over this one.
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@fontana sorry, not a trader, see these terms used in any possible mix
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@fontana Oh, totally. But it sure as hell isn't the Fedora community controlling Red Hat ATM. Nor should it be.
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@fabsh Alternately, another funded group could do more desktop in Fedora; big funding can come from more than RHT.
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@mairin BTW, email was not intended to take it offline, just frustration with 140 chars (I run off at the fingers a lot)
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@quaid do more desktop upstream, i suppose? i suppose a 3rd party group won't ignore fedora best practices as much as desktop team has done.
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@quaid Good point!
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@quaid i hear you, i was there, paid staff, but couldn't do what was requested/necessary. now i work for a floss isv.
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@kanarip What can we learn from that experience to get back in to Fedora practices + upstream in theopensourceway.org? #tosw
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@mairin Just pointing out that this dichotomy is not false. There are users that want bleeding-edge, and those that want just-works.
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@mairin Sure. I think the line between girl scouts and web devs is less significant than the line between both ("end-users") and tinkerers.
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@mairin Yes, I am. There isn't one dichotomy, there are hundreds of orthogonal ones. May a hundred respins bloom! testing+stable+respin=win!
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@mairin I admit I don't know if they are. Just stole bad example from original flamewar. The question is if they mind a broken system.
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@mairin Open source is for everyone. A specific piece of open source software or software compilation benefits from a target audience.
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@gbraad I really want nothing to do with Fedora right now at all.
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@jwildeboer are you applying? you would get my vote!
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@mairin Isn't that what free software does best? Unity through diversity? 200 Androids instead of one iPhone.
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@kanarip which I did not know and if so, WHY?! a legal issue? something that should be looked into if you want to expand your userbase
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@mairin Fair enough. Still, claiming there is no "power-user"/"end-user" friction is brushing problems under the rug.
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@gbraad trademarks are a bitch.
Jesús E. Franco Martínez likes this. -
@mairin Everything is 90% crap. I go by people's recommendations and am happy with the apps I run.
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@mairin Yes, I am sorry for that. It was my fault for suddenly dragging you in without offering common ground first.
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@mairin I sense you are tired of having the same-old-discussion. Do you have a canonical blog post clearly explaining we can relink to?
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@mairin I can imagine. I didn't like the stereotypes used either, but I think (2) in http://ur1.ca/36cp5 is what worries people like me.
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@mairin The root of this sub-convo, by @bruce89, is downplaying the friction: https://identi.ca/conversation/63315192#notice-64064705
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@rrix same feeling here. :-s
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@gbraad have you read how much Christoph Wickert struggled to get approved his idea of one DVD media w/4 desktops? Fedora is RedHat's [TM].
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@mairin It may have been a bit heavy handed. Not sure how a historical reference to a 4000 year dead civilisation can be offensive TBH.
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@mairin What I mean is I didn't want to offend you. I picked it to get my point across.
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@mairin I also consciously picked Ancient Egypt because it's so far removed from us that you can't really take offense IMO.
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@tzk I know this case well. Followed it closely on the mailinglist. APAC region has different needs...
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@fabsh When your only tool is a political correctness hammer, every problem looks like a bigoted, racist, misogynistic, offensive nail.
simsa0 likes this. -
@fabsh wow, great blog post, glad to agree with you for a change ;-) here's to a freedom-first fedora!
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@tzk should i mention my friends who moved on paid positions at SUSE or taking their time exclusively for CentOS?
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@joshix Yeah. That happens to me a lot.
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@lxoliva Wow. If we agree, who can stop us? :D
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@nicubunu good to know about it. btw, imho the motto of "you make it" is BS, covered by another evasion move to put it on "gender issues"
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@tzk tell the "you make it" thing to the people who tried to make the multi-desktop DVD and were blocked in any possible way...
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@fabsh GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELF! You equated people who work in free software giving away a free product with slave drivers.
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@nicubunu yep, my comment was not innocent at all, but i saw her just a while ago arguing hard here. sad.
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@tzk well, in spite of Debian's Freed kernel, Debian still has a lot more non-Free baggage to leave behind than Fedora. sadly.
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@lxoliva As I recall, RMS' main complaint was the official support of the non-free, right?
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@mjjzf *my* main issue is that Debian regards non-Free Software as good for users. that's nonsensical, and detrimental to our movement
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@lxoliva I wouldn't say "good" - I thought it was the ESR approach with "non-free is okay as a gateway to free".
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@lxoliva Yes, that was my impression - that it is part of the Debian project.
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@mjjzf Debian's principles are “freedom” and “users”, and 2nd is used to justify non-Free vs 1st, as if it was good for them
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@lxoliva Yes, that is a classic...
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@mjjzf "Debian would have to remove the references to its nonfree & contrib sections from its free packages & from its servers" is.gd/xA2jGI
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@samsnotunix To be completely honest: I don't give a fuck what you think about me.
Andy C likes this. -
@samsnotunix If you can't even stand a simple analogy without getting offended, I don't think we have anything more to discuss.
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@samsnotunix I think if you use a bit of common sense you'll realise he was trying to say contributors don't get to decide the direction.
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@fabsh I'm sorry. I didn't realize I hadn't been granted speaking privileges yet. I didn't realize any disagreement with you was disallowed.
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@mo6020 must be nice to have enough time and resources to have 2 boxes and know 2 builds . . .
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@reverendgreg Fedora doesn't take much knowing though...
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@mairin damn. pwned.
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@samsnotunix I very much like people disagreeing with me, especially when I get a good discussion out of it.
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@samsnotunix But that doesn't mean I care if I lose your respect. You can tell me that all day but that doesn't change that I don't care.
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@samsnotunix I am kind of at a loss why you think I denied you your right to speak, though. As if I could. Total bollocks...
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@fabsh "If you can't even stand a simple analogy without getting offended I don't think we have anything more to discuss."
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@samsnotunix What I was saying is I am then not interested in your opinion. I'm not saying you can't voice it.
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@samsnotunix Sure. :)
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@fabsh I was disappointed in the way you handle the criticism to what you said. Refusing to even attempt to understand the otherside.
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@fabsh Oh and sorry that the one reply was to your reply to corenominal that was an accident :(
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@fabsh And in any case, I think it has been established that the pyramids weren't built by slaves anyway.
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@samsnotunix Oh, I think I understand the other side well. I just think they are wrong.
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@kvikende Are you saying they were unionised contractors?
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@fabsh Aliens built and used those as landing platforms. Seriously: I havent researched it but I've heard this podcast http://ur1.ca/371lv
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@kvikende Ah! The Dännicken approach. Of course! I saw a movie about that once... Something with a gate.... ;)
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@kvikende Yeah. And MacGyver. :)
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@mairin I dunno why they aren't showing up, I have no control over identica.
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@mairin And I hope you are aware that I didn't mean that literally.
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@mairin The point I was making, was: That I make the distro, doesn't mean I own it or have any control over it.
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@mairin I doubt that. You can't deny that you have more possibilities if you are employed for Red Hat...
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@mairin the fact that people get so upset tells you sth about how they feel. Please do not ignore the problems.
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@mairin Mind you, I'm not saying that is bad. I personally think it's fair. But denying it is disengenious I think.
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@mairin I did not mean to hurt anyone.
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@mairin Yes, I agree on the Design Team. The Desktop Team is very different, though AFAICT.
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@mairin Yes, but how should we know that from the outside?
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@mairin 'maybe' it's not a definition of 'fact'.
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@mairin Believe me, I know *that*. ;)
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@mairin No, but I still stand by what I wrote. People need to learn to deal with criticism, TBH.
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@mairin And I've heard from ca. 50 people on this, only two said they were offended.
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@mairin let me take it another way. Playing with 'maybe's: Maybe if Fedora weren't a RedHat's (tm) but an independent Foundation's...maybe;)
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@mairin I never said that. All I said that your graphic was beside the point.
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@mairin Maybe if you work at Red Hat. I'm sitting here in my flat on the other side of the world and have no clue what's going on.
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@mairin and other people need 2 learn that sarcasm and irony is often OK and not meant to b offensive.
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@mairin I have the feeling you aren't interested in a productive discussion but just want to slash out at me b/c I hurt you with my post.
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@mairin i know you are upset by the emotional tone of the "give back" motto, but the "ownership" one lacks equally of 99% of information.
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@mairin why don't we all just STFU for fear we may upset someone over something? The world is now silenced; happy?
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@mairin As I said: Saying you make the distro is (IMO) beside the point Nicu was trying to make.
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@mairin by "we" that also includes you
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@mairin Feel free to tell me in IRC. It seems I *am* really not getting at what you mean...
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@jwildeboer TBH, I was neither sarcastic or ironic. The example might have been drastic but I still think it's valid.
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@mairin That is certainly your right. :)
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@mairin I have a feeling you aren't trying to see where the other side is coming from...
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@thistleweb I never claim to be mature. I don't even know what that means half of the time...
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@thistleweb LOL. I am your man for that!
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@mairin OK, why not just ignore me, then? I've said all I wanted to be honest. I know Fedora will go where it will go.
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@fabsh, the reason I switched to Debian was to avoid the commercial sponsor input. I am happy to swap the latest crack for less headaches :)
diablomarcus likes this. -
@corenominal I actually don't mind commercial sponsors. I think it works. People misunderstood me, I should've left the Red Hat issue out.
diablomarcus likes this. -
@mairin Thank you for that. :)
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@mairin i don't see enough reason in a children's outreach program to make a Wubi-like the default download of !fedora goo.gl/zmy3f
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@mairin your proposal argues is an issue related to outreach, here you claimed is related to outreach. You said that, not me.
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@mairin also discussing in anaconda-redhat ML the fedora default download seems to me exactly the kind of issues RH's ownership of Fedora
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@mairin If the target user is "not necessarily [like me]", the knee-jerk reaction is of course to worry. Didn't say (2) must be a bad idea.
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@fabsh I agree with you, Fab. Fedora can and should get the users who gravitate toward Arch and Gentoo - the "enthusiast," if you will
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