Conversation
Notices
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@fontana Apparently there is only one #Chatham_House_Rule: http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/about/chathamhouserule/
about a year ago from web-
@fontana He said "open core" not "opencore". I don't think he means the business model. He means open, central part IMHO.
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@fabsh Open Core is a business model AFAIK. has the sabdfl created a new defintion?
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@jwildeboer Georg hat die verklagt? Wow. Hardcore...
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@jwildeboer Well, you can use the term "open core" for lots of thinks. Like "free software" can mean very different things to different ppl.
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@fontana That wasn't my point. He doesn't mean the business model, it's obvious. He means Fedora is the "open central bit" of RHEL.
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@fontana As in "RHEL is a lot of closed patches around Fedora". Not saying that's true, but that's what he means IMO.
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@fabsh Nein, Georg hat Strafanzeige gestellt. Das ist was anderes.
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Gerard Braad — 吉拉德
CentOS - the Community ENTerprise Operating System
, Scientific Linux
, Fabian Scherschel
@fabsh That is what he meant here, but that is not true if you consider: !scientificlinux and !centos exist.
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@fontana Sure. But it was an off-the-cuff comment in IRC. You are trying to create drama where there's just minor ambiguity...
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@jwildeboer Ah OK. Mehr hardcore? IANAL, remember? ;)
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@jwildeboer Not saying he's better. Just saying he obviously doesn't mean it that way. It's clear if you read the convo...
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@fontana I am not saying it is correct. Jesus. You really want to blow this out of proportion, don't you?
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@gbraad He fired Asay very quickly, remember? ;)
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@fontana LOL. OK, I've made my point. Go to town. ;)
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@fabsh Das eine (Strafanzeige) ist strafrecht - also einen Gesetzesverstoss melden. Das andere (jmd anzeigen) ist Zivilrecht.
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@fabsh I only know he is not working for them anymore... but fired?
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@jwildeboer OK. Also mehr hardcore, möglicherweise Knast und so.... ;)
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@gbraad I am pretty sure. He worked there *very shortly*, especially for a COO. Of course, we'll never know for sure...
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@fabsh found it awkward too, but ok. Let's stop here before Roy takes it even more out of proportion ;-)
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@fontana I would prefer #MetalNeckBeard ;-)
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@gbraad Oh, I believe you can't prevent that anyway. @schestowitz is like a tidal wave of trollness with these things.... ;)
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@jwildeboer I'm sad that what's important to you from the IRC conversation is not @sabdfl's apology to the Banshee people @22:21. /cc @fabsh
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@webmink He appologises with words, but his actions are unchanged.
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@fabsh He may be right though. My criticism of Canonical here was how, not what.
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@webmink But he hasn't changed the how. They are still taking 70%. He hasn't changed the offer...
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@fabsh Did you read his justification? I think it has merit.
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@fabsh I think you (and others) are confusing business models and community models.
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@webmink I am not. What I'm saying is that Canonical did something that is good business but ethically questionable.
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@webmink Their community (as in Ubuntu) wasn't even involved in the discussion.
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@fabsh And I'm saying that Canonical did something many people would have agreed was acceptable had they talked to the community.
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@webmink Maybe. But that still doesn't make it ethically acceptable. Many people agree with Apple's content money grab too...
sazius (moved to status.saz.im) likes this. -
Bradley M. Kuhn
Fabian Scherschel
, Gerard Braad — 吉拉德
, Simon Phipps
, Jan Wildeboer
, Richard Fontana
@jwildeboer, @gbraad, @fontana, @webmink, @fabsh, I wish I could find the darn link to the IRC comment in question you're all debating!
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@fabsh, my goodness! Soo much #disturbing stuff said by !Canonical staff at the 2010-03-01 IRC meeting; I'm having trouble unpacking it all!
Gerard Braad — 吉拉德 likes this. -
@bkuhn Thank you for calling Shuttleworth out over his view of #Fedora. I appreciate you standing up as an a outside neutral party.
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@fabsh unless someone lied to me in private comms that I can not share... Asay was not fired.
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@fontana What do you make of this Fedora thing? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080339/quotes?qt0484139
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@bkuhn my point is you aren't easily labelled as being in either camp so your criticism can't be tossed for the same reasons mine would be.
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@bkuhn I wouldn't call it disturbing... I'd call it a refreshingly honest peek into the real Canonical corporate culture.
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@jspaleta and a corporate based in a tax free island.
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@fabsh if Shuttleworth can't be held accountable for what he says in a Ubuntu governance irc meeting... where should he be held accountable?
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@webmink will Amazon think its cool for Canonical to take affiliate revenue and fund the competing U1MS service. That would be...ironic.
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@webmink mixing bussiness models and community models? That is the innovation Canonical brought to the FOSS community!
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@bkuhn I've stopped reading to be honest.... I've had enough shit from them lately...
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@jspaleta Heh. So why did he leave so apruptly?
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@fabsh he preferred a real Mac to a wannabe Mac</sarcastic flamebait punchline> 'P
Richard Fontana and slonriam like this. -
@fabsh Answering that question would involve me relying information I obtained in a private comm which I have no gotten permission to repost
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@bkuhn perhaps a case of, "RHEL (Democracy) is the worst FOSS model (form of government) except for all those others that have been tried."
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@fontana What sabdfl says is funny considering that RHEL/CentOS is subset of Fedora. So complete opposite of Open Core.
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@bkuhn I have to say it's a veritable storm in a teacup. Must be a quiet weekend for the easily #disturbed.
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@bkuhn The far more interesting & significant insight from that transcript was Shuttleworth admitting Canonical has messed up over Banshee.
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@csmart, that analogy doesn't really make sense. What does RHEL have to do with governing people & societies? How is it like that?
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@bkuhn That's a quote from Churchill, I was referring more to the fact that RHEL model is not ideal, but maybe it's the best of the worst.
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@bkuhn An encouragement boost would certainly be welcome.
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@silner, yeah, but the only geek April Fool joke I ever liked was the classic Unix/C hoax one: http://www.elsop.com/wrc/humor/unixhoax.htm
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@silner, Having read it 100 times, I *just* lol'd yet again at: "casting…allowed…programmer to treat…integer as…50kb user-defined structure"
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@csmart, oh I disagree vehemently. There's no reason that support contracts need nor should restrict your users in this way & plenty don't!
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@bkuhn I don't think it's that crude, no. But I remain very cautious about being involved in the 2 (of 4) agreements with assignments.
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@webmink, it sounds like it's going to fail on its own if there are already 4 different agreements. How can this project ever succeed?
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@jspaleta I am Not saying he can't be held accountable. I said the meaning of that comment is far from disambigous.
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@jspaleta Well, that really isn't information to go by at all, is it now?
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@bkuhn It is funny
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@bkuhn OK :-)
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@mairin It's strange when dates vary. I didn't know until this year about Coptic Christmas (7th January)
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@mairin,it's not about "growing up";Avoiding that mindset requires self-awareness & constant vigilance. Can happen to any org,non-profit too
Karsten Wade likes this. -
@silner, amusingly, I've thought many times about using #selinux on !Debian; I like the concept of it (but uncomfortable w/ its #NSA roots).
Gary Wright and slonriam like this. -
@silner och, it's no problem with the UI tool thingy
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@bkuhn I really liked Debian in principle and it was easy to use, but I was too impatient for new software :)
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@bruce89 I discovered that lately. I struggled for ages with the cli advice that's so abundant in the help
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@bruce89 I was tearing my hair out with exceptions for memory use in Wine but I ditched my last Windows apps lately so that solved itself
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@silner ah yes, forgot about wine, I hear that can be testing so to speal
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@silner Aptosid ?
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@reality Didn't come across that. Have to read about that tomorrow (I'm getting drunk on red wine now)
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@silner NO, IT'S NOT WORTH IT!
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@bruce89 What, getting drunk? Bloody hipster.
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@reality what is this thing that is called drunk?
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@mairin, It's not immature; it's calculated manipulation. I think it's dangerous to underestimate intentions on stuff like this.
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@bruce89 Apply alcohol.
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@reality I have no wounds
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@bkuhn I'll be happy to use the agreement it creates which has no assignments but otherwise enforces good community norms.
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@mairin, Indeed. Welcome to the world of "Open Source" politics. Be grateful you've not been introduced to it up close & personal. I have.
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@fontana ahahaha
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@fontana: not entirely sure #peanutgate is really all that interesting - now, a gate made out of peanuts, that would be different... :-)
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@fontana, Wait, if copyright assignment ends how can proprietary relicensing contnue? Simply b/c there aren't public contributions anymore?
rozzin's identicat ghost likes this. -
@fontana, how do you think @sabdfl meant #Open_Core in this context? He realizes most think it's a bad thing, I'm sure.
Gerard Braad — 吉拉德 and slonriam like this. -
@bkuhn I generally think it was a bad choice of words. He probably meant to use 'Fedora is the open part', but what about RHEL & CentOS?
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@bkuhn, I'm not aware of any proprietary relicensing that Canonical is doing. Do you have examples?
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@bkuhn I still think you read Open Core too narrowly, in only one of its various meanings
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@bkuhn the original def mentions proprietary relicensing, but it *also* mentions free core with proprietary add-ons
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@bkuhn when I wrote the Linux-libre announcement, I mistook it as only the latter. I think you mistake it as only the former
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@bkuhn for your narrow reading, I think you miscommunicate with others who take broader or different meanings...
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@fabsh Neither is your assertion that he was fired. What is available for public record says he resigned.
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@bkuhn ... and you also come to conclusions that are based on false premises, as in this blog posting of yours
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@bkuhn He didn't say Fedora is open core but "Fedora is RHEL's open core" - the core of RHEL is open, and is Fedora. #storminateacup
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@jspaleta I didn't assert anything. All I said was it looks very much like he didn't go in love and harmony. It's an assumption...
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@jspaleta ...but one backed by the available public information. Of course they will publicly state all is fine. Companies always do that.
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@jspaleta frequently companies offer the chance to resign rather than be fired in shame. Not saying it's the case, but it could very well be
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@caostheory You can say that all you want Matthew (I did) but it seems folk prefer to hang their prejudices on a marginal gloss to air.
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@webmink Nobody "needs" copyright assignment. If your business plan requires you to have CA, it's a fail.
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@fabsh I don't think we are disagreeing.
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@webmink Ah OK. A lot of people think VCs are the new black these days...
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@fabsh My practical experiences bias me against them.
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@webmink I think that's only sensible. Doesn't seem like an ideal way to fund a company to me, TBH.
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@fontana I asked #ProjectHarmony to clarify endorsement policy: no response.
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@fontana Not certain, no; but still hopeful enough to just about remain engaged.
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@lxoliva, can you show me exactly what facts you believe are wrong? Most of my article is opinion, of course, but I'm happy to correct facts
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@caostheory,that's somewhat of a distinction w/out a difference. Anyway, my primary point is that he accused !RedHat of #Open_Core as a slur
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@fontana,yes,VC crowd is confused: ©AA not necessary for proprietary relicensing. Is why I say non-copyleft CLAs for copyleft is also bad.
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@fontana Yes, but while that unfriendlyness is natural with private software, when applied to Free Software it creates anti-bodies.
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@alisonchaiken, I'm not aware of any recording of #r0ml talking re: !RedHat business model; it was back bf. all conf talks were recorded. :)
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@fontana, of course! I say this in my blog post, didn't you read it? I say the"mistreated entities are large corporations". I get it.
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@fontana,that's disingenuous! Even if #Cygnus created #problematic business model, !RedHat continues them & it's fully RH responsibility now
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@fontana there is still strong tradition of iusnaturalism (esp. the catholic one) here, but yes, unfortunately you are right.
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@webmink the root of this (and other) problems is the Canonical unwillingness to separate their free and commercial offering ... no RHEL.
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@bkuhn Can you elaborate on how RH excludes customers that exercise their rights under GPL?
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@bkuhn Also... If Canonical's and Red Hat's business models are edge cases in F/OSS, which are the legitimate ones?
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@fabsh I think this covers an @bkuhn elaboration: http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2011/03/05/open-core-slur.html
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@fabsh, small business have a much easier time not creating #problematic business models. #Problematic parts of #RHEL model comes from size.
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@bkuhn Your last paragraph makes it sound like you do.
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@fabsh,this isn't a !GPL violation b/c user can exercise software freedom; however, there's a consequence: they lose their support contract.
mettaben likes this. -
@bkuhn Ah, OK. I see what you mean now. Funnily, I think that is fair though.
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@bkuhn An evolution of the RHEL model is to then see people no longer needing support subs (in-house expertise) as community partners.
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@alisonchaiken,I'd agree:on balance, !RedHat does more good for sw freedom than bad &is much better than (eg) #IBM. But discernment's needed
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@bkuhn RHEL customers might graduate from subscription-for-sysadmin-support to subscription-for-community-partnership-help.
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@bkuhn I always agree that we can help our friends improve by criticizing them. That includes me! And soon new employer I hope.
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@bkuhn That's your interpretation. My point is whether this is an issue at all depends massively on *your* interpretation.
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@bkuhn By the way, how can anything be "barely legitimate"? Isn't that like being "a bit pregnant"?
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@caostheory,Have you published a diff theory on it? IYO, did @sabdfl said "!Fedora is #OpenCore part of #RHEL" as a compliment or insult?
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@caostheory, "Barely legitimate" means "even a minor change would cause the activity to be illegitimate/unreasonable/inappropriate/bad".
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@caostheory,it's interesting that you attack w/ fervor any attempt to begin debate re: whether proprietary relicensing is bad for sw freedom
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@bkuhn Neither. The way I read it is as a neutral statement ("Fedora is the 100% open heart of RHEL") with a poor choice of words.
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@caostheory,he didn't say "open heart",he said #Open_Core. The confusion we're having is, IMO, YA example of why the phrase is merely a slur
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@caostheory,even if not slur (we likely disagree on that), #Open_Core is a confusing buzzword that pushes aside existing well-defined terms.
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@fontana that was my reasoning, I read “open core” as “the core is open” (OaiF :-), but it proved to be broader than that
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@bkuhn I absolutely agree it is a slur. What I am saying is that you cannot know for sure he meant "Open Core" as opposed to open core
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@lxoliva, if @caostheory is correct, Lampitt's #Open_Core definition is canonical & means only proprietary relicensing/add-ons: ur1.ca/244dn
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@bkuhn It's hilarious that you think this is "attack w/ fervor". It's just someone expressing an opinion that disagrees with your own.
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@caostheory,I can imagine @sabdfl communicates poorly (cf:sexist comments);Still,IMO,his statements re: !RedHat are likely always calculated
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@caostheory b/c only time I hear from you is when my blog says #OpenCore on top post. OTOH, perhaps it's *only* place our interests overlap.
diablomarcus likes this. -
@fontana, Indeed, if I were an amoral person, I'd admire the architects of #RHEL model for ingeniously finding the line & camping out on it.
Jason Riedy likes this. -
@webmink, I get the impression you didn't read my blog post that others were commenting on. It uses @sadfdl merely as jumping off point.
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@fontana, I thought you'd like that as a summary. :) Maybe we should have a debate about this sometime at some conference.
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@bkuhn Actually I did. I have so far avoided pointing out that use of the term today is largely due to Andrew Lampitt http://wmk.me/fIIYC4
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@webmink, I know that, @caostheory brought this to my attention last time I blogged on #OpenCore & I've already spoken to that: ur1.ca/244dn
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@bkuhn I would encourage proper debate about proprietary relicensing and sw freedom. I don't think you can do that starting with a straw man
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@caostheory, I haven't intended to construct any straw men. My recent blog considers whether !Fedora does proprietary relicensing for #RHEL.
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@bkuhn As I recall you wrote that after I reposted this article around the same time: http://wp.me/PH8ns-tS
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@caostheory, @sabdfl's poorly worded statement did provide an inspiration to consider the question, but that's not the same as a straw man.
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@caostheory, you could reasonably argue "#OpenCore is a slur" part uses @sabdfl's statement as strawman; but you agreed w/ me on that point.
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@webmink To me, an average user. I more interested in the fact he did what he wanted anyway. Is there such a phrase as a pyrrhic apology?
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@webmink Anyway, I mean: an apology has to be more than just words in the right order, just has to be more substantial
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@caostheory, *However*, I included @lxoliva slur-ish use of phrase "#Open_Core" to make sure @sabdfl's recent comment wasn't my only example
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@silner Right. My observation is that's the topic deserving scrutiny but instead there's endless discussion of an imagined attack on Red Hat
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@webmink But I think that's wrong. This can't be about semantics. Even semantically, he was mean spirited to Banshee and that's not Ubuntu
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@webmink Not out here in user land. It's the meanness that stings; it's that simple
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@silner It's not clear what you are disagreeing with me about, can you explain?
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@webmink Yeah I'm staying well out of that Redhat argument, partly because it's too complicated for me :)
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@fontana It's encouraging when customers graduate themselves, e.g. AMQP. Many will pay to have done for them, fewer want to partner in doing
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@webmink I was just finding relevant places to interject my thoughts :)
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@webmink I don't agree or disagree about Redhat. The arguments are just too involved and I haven't kept up with them
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@silner I haven't really commented on them. Will tomorrow though :-)
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@webmink Sabl seems to think this is all just his choice and yes, Unity is, because it's a judgment thing, but this is an ethical thing
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@webmink The irony is I never really liked Banshee :)
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@silner Maybe. There's a dialogue to be had. The issue for me is it didn't happen before the decision.
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@webmink Yeah. I'm more sad than angry with Canonical really, but it could make me move. I noticed Debian 6 supports all my hw. Lenny didn't
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@mairin I personally have nothing but fond memories of girl's bathrooms from high school.
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@bkuhn every post you write on the subject seems to focus on Canonical, which does not actually practice open core, by any definition
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@caostheory,only 2/5 of my blogs on this mention !Canonical; they demand ©AA & insist on the right to proprietary relicense&won't compromise
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@fabsh Okay, Matt has made a public comment now via twitter which states directly he was not fired. I hope that clears it up for you.
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@bkuhn I take issue at your saying I took Open Core too far, when you justify that from your narrow interpretation of the term
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@bkuhn even you acknowledge in the blog posting that the def covers “proprietary add-ons”
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@bkuhn now, proprietary add-ons don't always require relicensing, as Linux itself shows
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@bkuhn which is why I dispute the underlying assumption that Open Core = prop relicensing of the “obviously”-started sentence
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@bkuhn I agreed Open Core is confusing and should be avoided, but I never agreed it was equivalent to proprietary relicensing
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@bkuhn later in the article, you return to the assumption, asking yourself whether Red Hat engages in proprietary relicensing
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@bkuhn which, again, misses the point that Open Core is broader, and might apply even if there's no proprietary relicensing involved
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@bkuhn indeed, one might argue that, although Red Hat's service agreement abides by all relevant FS licenses, ...
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@bkuhn ... the threat of revocation of service upon exercise of freedoms are a deterrent, rendering non-Free the supplied software
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@bkuhn which would indeed make Fedora a (mostly-)Free Core of the contract-encumbered RHE[G]L
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@bkuhn even without the threat, RHE[G]L would still fit Open Core (in the Free Bait sense), because of the bundled proprietary add-ons
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@bkuhn, I think that there's a big difference between "is possible" and the claim in your blog entry of: "new business model of choice."
Rodney Dawes likes this. -
@bkuhn Criticize Canonical - fine. Criticize open core - by all means. But by conflating the two you undermine the arguments against both
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@bkuhn I love identica and have been here close to 2 years now. Still I feel you should allow people a choice to comment on ur post as guest
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@lxoliva I think it is harmful to call all those things open core since we need term open core to use it against real open core companies.
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@lxoliva And it is no fun when they point back to your "linux is open core" article
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@bkuhn I ack Lampitt's definition, and it's broader than you make it. different parts of it suggest different models
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@lxoliva Those three things (open core, blobs, and proprietary re-licensing) are all harmful but not to the same extent.
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@lxoliva So they need to be called differently.
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@gnufreex I distinguish Open Core Business Model from Open Core Software. anyway, I prefer Free Bait, and Linux fits
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@bkuhn agreed. I don't get why that's not taken as a further restriction
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@bkuhn I mean, a contract that says you pay, you get binaries and services, but if you share you break the contract. no restriction?
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@bkuhn if the binaries were offered to all, like sources are, it would be different, but as it is, they're tainted by the contract
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@bkuhn if you break the contract, you loose the handcuffs and they become (mostly) Free, but you lose service (and payment?)
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@bkuhn so how's that different from e.g. “if you share, you must pay”?
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@bkuhn ... or “if you share, you'll be sued for violation of this NDA”
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@lxoliva it's not an additional restriction, it's an agreement where you waive some of your rights in exchange for the service.
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@lxoliva That's ok by me, if my clients always changed stuff I make I'd need to charge a whole lot more.
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@lxoliva what is really unfortunate is the *threat* language. It's not nice and irks a lot some people (like me, a lot, because I like RH).
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@ruiseabra but how's that different from a Non-Disclosure Agreement that stops you from sharing the software?
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@lxoliva the purpose of an NDA is the ND. The purpose of the agreement is two fold: reduce support cost and maximise proffit.
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@ruiseabra but in both cases, if you share, you break the agreement. why would software remain Free under one but not the other?
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@lxoliva because what you loose in the case of support contracts is support contract. "We don't hold your hand anymore".
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@lxoliva It's nasty, but doesn't remove freedom. And I'm sure it's more oriented towards being able to be used on abusers rather than always
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@ruiseabra and what do you lose if you break the NDA? honor and reputation for abiding by promises don't count?
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@ruiseabra an agreement/contract is law between parts. if you agreed to not engage in X, you gave up freedom X
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@ruiseabra a penalty/remedy might be an additional deterrent, but I'm not sure it's necessary to configure loss of freedom
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@ruiseabra also, remember that you paid for someone to hold your hand. does Red Hat refund if the support contract is canceled?
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@lxoliva An NDA is a contract, but one whose purpose is to hide information.
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@lxoliva it's cancelled if you do something wrong (like paying for support on X servers and using that support on much more than that).
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@lxoliva I agree.
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@ruiseabra one whose purpose is to get the other party to commit herselfto not divulge information, just like the service contract at hand
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@ruiseabra that's yet another freedom being curfewed. the one I'm speaking of is freedom 2, not freedom 0
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@fontana This is true. You want freedom, you'd better be ready to play bysome necessary rules.
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@bigbrovar, lots of blogs require that people register. I don't think that's a distinction btw identica commenting & "onsite" blog comments.
diablomarcus likes this. -
@caostheory, you have a bit of a point. I wouldn't talk about them in same post if @sabdfl didn't keep bringing #Open_Core up all the time.
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@caostheory, I'd note, however, that we would be naïve not to look a few steps ahead at what !Canonical is trying to do w/ Proj. #Harmony.
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@caostheory @tedgould,also, *no one* in the history of Free Sw has used ©AA like !Canonical's w/out eventually doing proprietary relicensing
Richard Fontana likes this. -
♻ @bkuhn lots of blogs require that people register. I don't think that's a distinction btw identica commenting & "onsite" blog comments.
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@bkuhn: No one has ever gotten the number of free desktop users that Ubuntu has today either. Times, they are a changin'.
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@tedgould,IMO !Canonical's like most companies:sometimes good for sw freedom,some bad. On balance,Canonical probably does more good than bad
James Tait likes this. -
@bkuhn The problem d way I see it is. identica is limited as a blog commenting system. It would be cooler if comments are linked to identica
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@bkuhn also its kind of restrictive, its 1 thing to register to a blog to comment (which also peeves me) its another to register to a ...
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@bkuhn social networking site, just because I want to comment on a blog even if I might not b into social networking & never use the account
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@bkuhn What harmful thing is Canonical doing exactly?
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@dbs, it's been clear for a while #Harm-ony 'd've optional doc or § respecting #copyleft. IMO not making it clear default is #problematic.
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@fontana: Nope. I'm saying that because other organizations in the past have done things doesn't mean future ones will. Things change.
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@fontana In part: lack of CLA models leaves many projects with (1) no cla or (2) amateur cla. We hope models give projects better options.
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@fontana Dude, you used to work here. You know we don't spend much time formulating official policies.
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@fontana That's what I'm arguing, yes. And I'm pretty sure I'm not naive; that bridge I bought is going to pay BIG dividends one day!
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@bkuhn I think all the TLAs are doing more harm. FWIW, you can't actually give up © in the US, afaict. You can only agree to not enforce.
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@dobey, are you confusing the USA w/ the EU? One can assign © & generate it as work-for-hire in USA. EU has moral rights which complicates.
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@dobey not quite right. You can transfer all of your (C) rights in US. But, relatedly, check out the termination option: http://ur1.ca/3fcfs
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@fontana #Interesting idea to cover #Chatham_House_Rules in #TOSW, what should it cover? As an anti-rule in http://bit.ly/TOSWDoneWrong ?
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@fontana One could argue #Chatham_House_Rules are http://bit.ly/TOSWCoPPubPriv but I don't think so - lockup of ALL private comms /= #TOSW
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@jamesvasile @fontana "to encourage openness & the sharing of information" but WITHOUT ACCOUNTABILITY. Rife w/ #disturbing potential, that.
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@bkuhn What's confusing is why people seem to think the © assignment issue is one, or is so important. Because it's not.
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@quaid It's a tradeoff. In the end, the licenses will either be good or not. The community will judge. Is trust part of the equation?
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@jamesvasile Essential part of free/open source software way is full, public, archived disclosure of why decisions made.
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@quaid Essential? History is helpful, but a lot of decisions happen offline or unrecorded or in private. Yet FOSS endures...
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@jamesvasile FOSS endures despite. In our experience, it *is* an essential principle, ignored at peril: http://bit.ly/TOSWOpenDiscussions
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@quaid I'd agree with "important" part of FOSS, but the only essential part IMO is the freedom. FOSS will limp along without all the rest
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@bkuhn Do you have a valid example of something that exists today, where © control is or would be a real problem?
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@fontana you'd prefer perhaps the Marquess of Queensberry Rules?
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@fontana which I take to be legal under the #Chatham_House_Rules
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@jamesvasile @quaid : "Trust but verify". A commitment to participatory transparency invests into the mutually held bank of trust.
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@jamesvasile @quaid: "Just trust us" decisions done behind closed doors spend from the bank of trust. The bank can go broke all too easily.
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@jspaleta *Nicely* said; thx to identi.ca CC BY I snarfed those right in to http://bit.ly/TOSWOpenDiscussions #TOSW
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@jamesvasile if the #harmony draft is not secret, why not just put it on the web?
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@liw I have no objections to that. Not sure why the workflow is how it is.
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@bkuhn Bashing a company does not a valid example make. I see lots of bashing, but no real 'proof.' Is this the journal of cosmology now?
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@dobey the Mambo 2 Joomla for starters, you will find more if you look for them.
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@bkuhn No, that's just @dobey being a prick as usual. Sadly !pino does not have the gagging feature !elmdentica does.
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@bkuhn You could point him to a list containing every company doing that, and even if it were all companies, he'd just change the argument.
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@jwildeboer @dobey @bkuhn MySQL, Openoffice.org ;-)
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@ruiseabra Good to see you're still as mature as always.
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@bkuhn I'm not asking you to. I'm asking for you to provide data about your complaints re: Canonical, rather than just bashing.
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@dobey I truly don't care about your opinion of me, so shoo!
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@fontana It's like the #hitchhikersguidetothegalaxy: The plans for the bypass have been on display at the planning office for months now.
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@bkuhn Exactly my point. Adding a - like that to harmony is more harmful. Are you stooping to #boycottboy level now?
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@ruiseabra Then stop mentioning me. I can understand your obsession with me, I am fabulous. But it's not healthy.
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@dobey As fabulous as those slighlty bulky folks who live under bridges in fantasy tales and only come out at night lest they become rocks.
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@ruiseabra Well at least your English has improved a little.
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@dobey It's not bad, for a non native speaker. I've seen natives write a lot worse than you :)
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@ruiseabra That wasn't so good, for English.
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@dobey shoo
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@ruiseabra You still haven't figured out how to use the Internet, have you?
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@dobey man, when you're trolling you just won't stop, will you?
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@ruiseabra Oh man i feel when i should just work
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@x11r5 lol, you're so focused on trolling that you even confuse your avatars...
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@ruiseabra Hehe
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@ruiseabra I am not trolling anything. I didn't just jump into a conversation that wasn't about me to attack someone else.
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@dobey yeah, you keep telling yourself that :)
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@quaid consider using citations for direct quotes in that work even if the CC license allows otherwise. Just from a scholarly work pov
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@quaid And with that said... don't attribute those comments you snarfed to me I'd rather not have my name in the document.
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@ruiseabra No. I don't talk to myself. It's not healthy.
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@ruiseabra Even on the next 5 years
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@jspaleta Sure, & I'd hate the work messy with citation links any inline attributions anyway!
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