Conversation
Notices
-
@bkuhn Not to say that they broke a promise, but I always got the feeling that they're not very open to outside input
-
@bkuhn ever heard of KDE? read up...
-
@jospoortvliet,I was an active participant in #FLOSS when both #KDE & !GNOME were founded & have followed both; I'm well read. Your point?
-
@bkuhn his point probably was that KDE has done exactly what you suggest no long-standing FLOSS communities do :)
-
@bkuhn KDE is highly opportunistic in this way: if it works and aligns with our interests, it's secondary if we were involved in design
judahsshadow likes this. -
@bkuhn it may in part also be due to a difference in how we define the boundaries of what we consider our community; KDE is "promiscuous"
-
-
@bkuhn Is Linux long standing enough? The way that linus gets contributions ingrained the concept of external contributions/designs.
-
@jospoortvliet, #KDE accepted code-dumps not developed inside community rewriting core? Unless you somehow mean #Qt itself,I didnt know this
-
@bkuhn yes they did. Lots, actually. DBus for example. Don't pretend you don't know, you're on the board - you know how closed GNOME can be
-
@bkuhn not saying others are perfect, surely not Canonical or KDE. But GNOME has a problem and step one to solving is to acknowledge it!
-
@bkuhn and you're one of the leaders addressed by Mark. Surely you have influence which you *could* use for good
-
@jospoortvliet @bkuhn Canonical always neglected KDE. Now, they're in a hairy situation, they come whining...
-
@jospoortvliet, to be clear, the !GNOME Advisory Board doesn't lead GNOME Foundation. It's different from Board of Directors.
-
@jospoortvliet,Meanwhile,I don't see what !GNOME did wrong. !Canonical showed up w/out code, complained re; policy,then developed separately
-
@jospoortvliet, IMO GNOME is trying its best to better cooperate w/ #KDE, but anyway that not analogous to the !GNOME & !Canonical situation
-
@bkuhn I think the blogs and comments in there show that we're past the finger pointing phase and"done nothing wrong" is almost never true.
-
@bkuhn That said, I agree that not working within gnomes VCS repos was/is a major reason for failure.
-
@bkuhn Easy to say GNOME didn't do anything wrong, since they have 'no leadership, however outside parties have difficulties working w/them
-
@bkuhn I don't think gnome is all bad, but it's shortsighted to blame canonical for things with kde also reporting the same type of problems
-
@bioselement,Saying !GNOME has no leadership is inaccurate;Anyway, KDE/ GNOME history is more complex;not comparable to !Canonical situation
-
@bkuhn Well according to every post I've seen defending gnome, there's no leadership to 'sort things out', thus the blame falls to no one.
-
@bioselement, IMO your characterization is inaccurate. !GNOME isn't a military; there's no chain of command. But ∃ leadership & many said so
-
@bkuhn What does military have to do with it? 'someone' makes every decision. But no one seems to want to take credit for problems.
-
@bkuhn how is GNOME Shell core? It's just a shell... KDE has 4 of them... ;-)
-
@bkuhn well if you're trying so hard how come it doesn't show?
-
@bkuhn leading grey area in FOSS. The GNOME board has less influence in GNOME than Mark in Canonical but more than KDE board in KDE.
-
@jospoortvliet, sounds like you've some bitterness to work, since you simply ignore #KDE & !GNOME will share its conference again this year.
-
@bkuhn I'm one of the organizers of the desktop summit... Read up on who you talk to ;-)
-
@jospoortvliet I do see a lot of potential in fd.o! jsut hope Desktop Summit will be a good opportunity
-
@gbraad yes. Unfortunate to read from eg aseigo's last blog that last DS had a great meeting but little actual result... :(
-
@jospoortvliet, hence I said "your bitterness shows"(not that you're uninformed) b/c you say "cooperation doesn't show" when conf is joint.
-
@jospoortvliet,in other words,you're just attacking: making a sweeping statement that you *know* isn't true from first hand experience.
-
@jospoortvliet,that is,unless your argument is: !GNOME isn't helping w/ desktop summit. Is that what you mean by "cooperation not showing"?
-
@bkuhn there's more than the DS. And collaboration there good. Several individuals do just fine. problem is project wide culture imho
-
@jospoortvliet, My point was: you made a sweeping statement that you know yourself to be inaccurate. Doesn't bode well for your argument.
-
@jospoortvliet, I agree it is difficult for #KDE & !GNOME to cooperate for reasons about a complicated history specific to their situation.
-
@jospoortvliet, going back to what launched this rathole: complicated GNOME/KDE situation is very different from !GNOME / !Canonical one.
-
@bkuhn agreed...
-
@bkuhn: This might be relevant, on Ubuntu. I don't believe GNOME has any essential mono dependencies. http://is.gd/KbUQIT
-
@bkuhn As I understand it (and wikipedia also lists this): a full gnome-desktop includes tomboy.
-
@gvs,that must mean #Mono is included in !GNOME by default. #disturbing; but Mono isn't non-FaiF so not same as #Qt's former non-!FaiF-ness.
-
@jospoortvliet This is what I mean by deep mistrust - working well with s/o from GNOME is the exception, and there's "project-wide culture"
-
@bkuhn C# bindings are part of the official bindings and pull in Mono as a required dependency. I am not disturbed.
-
@nearyd I know bad stories get more attention but I know of too little good stories to say the bad ones are exception. Hence I say culture.
-
@jospoortvliet Saying "the GNOME culture sucks" does not make good stories easy. Animosity breeds animosity. Tribalism breeds tribalism.
-
@jospoortvliet i think all the hearts were in the right place, we need to find effective leadership and agreed processes to find success
-
@nearyd i don't think it sucks; i think there's a behavioral pattern that leads to cross-project efforts having a lower success rate
-
@aseigo And I think that you're wrong. There are communication issues, yes. But they're on both sides. Slightly more on our side, perhaps.
-
@nearyd then explain the lack of symmetry in technology adoption and the roles repeatedly played. we need to deal with reality here, guy.
-
@nearyd it extends beyond communication issues; usage of identity.kde.org for GCDS? incompat jobs dbus impl, attempt to stuff it in fd.o?
-
@nearyd and yes, there are also communication processes we can improve. fd.o specs metadata is one. co-op has not been made available. why?
-
@nearyd in fairness: nobody is perfect and everyone has room for improvement. what's important is that we id issues and work on them.
William Chambers likes this. -
@aseigo "Lack of symmetry"? Gstreamer, Telepathy, pulseaudio, PackageKit, upstart, systemd, DeviceKit, HAL, DBus, DConf, UPower, ...
-
@aseigo I don't understand "co-op has not been made available". Were eager people at GCDS, no follow-up. No need to blame - this happens.
-
@aseigo Agreed. It's important to ID them correctly though. No-one is 100% innocent or 100% guilty. Except me ;)
-
@aseigo So strongly agree, nobody is perfect. Question is whether they can admit their failures.
-
@nearyd yes, the mode is "from GNOME == good; outside GNOME == questionable and avoided". GNOME is great at sharing it's products, no doubt.
-
@nearyd we can talk about how that outbound sharing happens, which also has issues imho, but that's a completely different topic.
-
@nearyd this is about GNOME being open to others. again, remember your objections over identity.kde.org?
-
@nearyd it wasn't just "no follow up". that meeting was needed because the issue was being ignored by GNOME. just as metadata is now.
-
@nearyd worse, the "answer" out of GCDS was to ignore the work already done and start all over .. by a GNOME developer this time.
-
@aseigo Yes. I said "some people will not be happy creating an account on identity.kde.org to go to DS". I was right. Your point?
-
@nearyd well not all of GNOME culture sucks, far from it, it wouldn't exist if it did. But in regards to openness there is a problem.
-
@aseigo I'm lacking personal context to comment - was not involved in fd.o before or since GCDS. Care to flesh out claims?
-
@nearyd my point is that it highlights very well the NIH challenges faced, and that it isn't "is tech X good enough?" it's cultural.
-
♻ @ProgrammerWorld: The 5 Stages of Programming Grief... http://sns.ly/8xbMy3
-
@aseigo I don't use Skype. Email, maybe?
-
@aseigo "NIH" from the people who brought the world Phonon? ;-)
-
@bioselement I hope you can appreciate why your use of "they" here made me smile. No admission of imperfection from you, then?
-
@nearyd you do realize that Phonon allowed KDE to step away from NIH aRts and adopt things like GStreamer and Pulse, right?
-
@nearyd not only is your example ironic in the extreme, but how about we stick to the issue at hand instead of deflecting?
-
@aseigo I don't accept that GNOME as a whole has a NIH problem. How's that for not deflecting?
-
@nearyd Nope, none. I was not involved in the processes in any way, although I'm changing that now. Nice try though. :)
-
@nearyd I know it shouldn't come from the outside. That's why I was :( that you didn't take the opportunity to say 'there is a problem'
-
@nearyd but I know the whole thing is a bit more complicated than that anyway, eg recently the 3.0 release simply meant: too busy...
-
@bkuhn but what about the official Java binding? Given Oracle recent lawsuit...
-
!kde, !gnome and !canonical fighting not enough? @bkuhn let's discuss mono in GNOME! http://bit.ly/hVGF3Y lol 'focus, anyone?' :D
-
@jospoortvliet but clearly put a blindfold on Java....
-
@jospoortvliet I agree maybe you should give !KDE, !Gnome and !canonical one your famous group hugs.
-
@bkuhn Distributors are free to remove from GNOME, and many have. A Mono dependency does not exclude apps from inclusion in GNOME.
-
@jospoortvliet, there are always many issues of importance in Free Software. It came up in context, if you follow the thread.
-
@gvs Is *that* what I said? Please do not misuse my words. /cc bkuhn
-
@nearyd: "Let's just say that mono apps will be considered for inclusion" /cc bkuhn ... I don't see my misinterpretation.
-
@gvs Does considering something for inclusion equal accepting it? Certainly not equal to "no objection".
-
@bkuhn I know, just thought it was funny ;-)
-
@gvs Yes, they could. There is no policy against Mono apps. As it should be. Is it likely? You decide.
-
@gvs IMHO yes. I'm on record as saying that I have no problem with C# as a language, Mono is FaiF, and we should ignore patents.
-
@bkuhn http://ur1.ca/3j80n ← "Do not grieve, captain…"
All Identi.ca content and data are available under the