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Rather tired of attitudes that believe software freedom is about taking away things one is free to do rather than adding to them.
- joshix and giammi like this.
- Charles-H. Schulz and Charles-H. Schulz repeated this.
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@webmink, I do not really understand what you are saying. I am not aware of anyone who is proposing what you say.
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@webmink due to network effects using proprietary software diminishes others freedom, not just one's own; at least some scolding merited
Rob Myers likes this. -
@mlinksva I'd assert the problem of Skype's network effect is at least an order of magnitude greater than a site used for image hosting.
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@mlinksva Skype is a closed application with closed interfaces & protocols you're forced to install to communicate with other users.
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@webmink I'd agree, all software/svcs have network effects, some much great than others; http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2323477
Osama Khalid likes this. -
@webmink I know; I even have it installed. But I find attitudes that scold me for such decidedly non-tiring.
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@mlinksva There's a distinct difference between compelling use of client software and implicit endorsement of a web site.
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@mlinksva So we differ :-) My view: if my choice doesn't compel $person to use specific software my choice is none of $person's business.
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@mlinksva Everyone has to decide which compromises to make; all I ask is that they are made consciously.
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@webmink I missed https://identi.ca/conversation/67443221 ; in any case I think Flickr network effect > mere endorsement; it's a social site
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@mlinksva I totally agree. There's tremendous pull to use Flickr even from F/OSS-minded people. It's #disturbing.
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@webmink I still use Flickr, but am eager to get off it, accept criticism from those who don't use, especially anyone working on replacement
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@webmink on this we agree. but I think consciousness ought admit that all software/svcs impact others, just to greater or lesser degree
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@fabsh indeed, very much like #twitter; difference is there's no #federatedflickr alternative analogous #statusnet
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@mlinksva I know. That's why I said it's comparable to Skype: It's non-FaiF, compelling and there's no real alternative.
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@mlinksva Actually… I am starting to work on something to that effect. Hopefully a real announcement in a few weeks.
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@cwebber That sounds good! What language?
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@cwebber I don't think you can pull it off without 3 cofounders with bad haircuts. :-\ I am really looking forward to seeing the ann^wcode!
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@fabsh Python. Other tech: mongodb, mongokit, webob, wtforms, jinja2, nosetests… no "framework", wsgi minimalist
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@fabsh Oh, and ostatus for federation. Each media work pubsubhubbub subscribable, etc. AGPL, blah blah.
Mike Linksvayer and Clacke Moved to Unlimited like this. -
@fabsh and what's so different from flickr or skypt to games? :)
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@fabsh I suspect that we're all in relatively close agreement if differences in attitude could be stripped away.
Rob Myers likes this. -
@fabsh Who endorsed it?
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@mlinksva Me too. I didn't plan to say anything till I could prove to myself w/ the basics down, but couldn't resist joining this convo
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@webmink I am not attacking you. I am trying to point out that you don't see proprietary network services as a problem.
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@cwebber Nice. Python is the only language I can even read code in. Will check it out when it happens! :)
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@cwebber Sounds awesome! Can't wait! :D
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@ruiseabra Nothing. Proprietary games are a huge problem (also without much alternatives). I've said so for years!
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@webmink You, by using it. I freely admit I endorse Skype. I know it's a problem and I am actively trying alternatives when I can....
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@fabsh I will ping you for sure when the announcement happens! I am shooting for April 30 for announcement time.
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@fabsh I have no idea why you think that given I wrote http://wmk.me/igFSDz (and given you are obviously attacking me).
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@fabsh Use is not endorsement. Use is use. Endorsement is endorsement.
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@webmink Why does everyone construe having an argument as an attack? I am trying to discuss an article you wrote...
Matthew Heinke likes this. -
@webmink ...if you don't want feedback, don't pipe your blog feed here.
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@webmink So how come these services are a problem and Flickr isn't? I don't get that logic at all.
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@cwebber Awesome! I will give my best to evangalise it!
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@webmink If you are a public figure, use is endorsement.
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@fabsh I dunno, but I just decided that I agree with everybody. ("I'm with you fellers." - Delmar O'Donnell)
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@fabsh It's the tone with which you phrase your comments.
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@webmink This is a 140 char medium, I'm trying to get to the point. TBH, "tone" is very subjective in written communications.
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@fabsh It's a matter of scale. I'm not saying Flickr has no problems, just they almost fade to insignificance alongside Skype.
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@webmink I admit I was pissed off at what I thought was hypocrisy and double standards. That doesn't mean I'm not up for a civilised debate.
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@fabsh No-one else has attacked me here today :-)
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@webmink Well, we can agree on that. Just don't say it isn't a problem or it isn't comparable. At its core it's a similar problem.
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@reality So do you endorse absolutely every aspect of everything you use? Your cellphone, for example?
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@webmink I know that I am always the lone wolf in speaking my mind and it hasn't bothered me since primary school, to be honest.
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@fabsh No it's not. Skype forces me to install a proprietary client to engage. Flickr forces me to do nothing, whatever its faults.
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@fabsh: Also, you recently said to me it was a cop-out to use the 140 char limit as an excuse. Yet you use that self same excuse yourself.:(
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@popey That was no excuse. I am not excusing my discussion style, I'm trying to explain why I am discussing as I am.
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@popey What makes you think I care? I'm not on here for followers, I'm on here for grown-up debates.
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@fabsh You don't care that people don't want to hear what you have to say?
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@fabsh If anyone tried to make a point for so long with you, you would have thrown your toys out of the pram ages ago. Leave him alone
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@webmink So the proprietary software you use isn't on your machine. You still use proprietary software and give up freedom.
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@gabrielsaldana Yes, we do. If self-hosting was the answer we wouldn't even have this discussion. Think about it.
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@satipera Stop telling me what I should do? Who do you think you are?
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@fabsh I haven't expressed an opinion, you're making assumptions.
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@fabsh Just because it doesn't bother you, doesn't make it right, good, effective or useful.
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@fabsh Two entirely different classes and scales of problem, which require entirely different solutions.
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@popey Yep. Am I wrong?
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@popey Whatever. I don't think being a tame yes-man is effective or useful. Seems we differ in opinion.
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@patrickniedzielski Ah, OK :-)
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@webmink I agree. I just felt you were actively marginalising one of them.
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@fabsh You're wrong to make those assumptions, yes. Whether you're wrong on the assumptions, pass. Not sure I care either way.
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@fabsh: At no point have I said "shut up", it's not about shutting up, it's about the way the message is delivered.
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@popey Not caring is even worse, but lets not get into this, OK? :)
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@fabsh It's not about being a yes-man, or tame. But the confrontational tone is often even less helpful. You disagree. That's clear.
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@popey Unless you want to call fallacies, but usually that doesn't come across to well. :D
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@patrickniedzielski Uhhh.... Smack, bang. I am hurt now.... Well, not really. As Frontalot says: The feeling is mutual, buddy. :)
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@fabsh: You don't care if nobody listens, yet you shout the loudest. Those two do not marry up.
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@popey Well, this is my way. Take it or leave it. At least I'm prepared to have the same ordinance levelled back at me. :)
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@popey Helpful is overrated. Most people are trying to be helpful all day and it gets us nowhere. Sometimes you need to roll the hard six.
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@popey What you mistake for shouting is not letting people off the hook easily until they've given me proper arguments.
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@fabsh Now you're just streaming bullshit into the computer in the hope it sounds profound. Time for bed.
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@fabsh: "Ordinance". Why does everything have to equate to a battle? Can't people converse, discuss, without the heavy-armour analogies?
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@popey LOL. Now that was a cheapshot. Good night.... :)
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@fabsh chocolate milk!? *helps all*
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@maloki I'm doing good. People always things this stuff gets me excited. I am calmer then when I played Dragon Age earlier. :D
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@maloki *think Damnit! :)
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@gabrielsaldana yes, as flickr is asmuch a social network as photo repo; ∴ need is #federatedflickr could be done via enhancing gallery2&co
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@fabsh What I am not is someone whose finishing argument is "what makes you think I care" Perhaps it is time to leave the teen years behind.
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@satipera You know what: Fuck yourself! :D
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@webmink use is use, but also implied endorsement, & more powerful endorsement than mere stmt of endorsement; course disclaimer possible
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@mlinksva @fabsh its something I thought starting since !libreplanet 2009. I'll let u know when I release the first functional prototype :)
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@gabrielsaldana Do you write python? Maybe we should talk.
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@fabsh Thanks for making my point yet again. For your viewing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLuEY6jN6gY
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@mlinksva Use of *network* software is a literal network effect on the freedom of others. But SaaS/communication effects what "use" is
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@mlinksva Still don't agree. No-one endorses every aspect of everything they use.
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@satipera You should just back off. You attempts to make me feel bad are futile. :)
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@gabrielsaldana it would be interesting project to build a flickr like service based in Drupal 6.
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@patrickniedzielski Identi.ca is a good place to hone one's skills in that area; 140 chars is often not enough to list them all. ;-)
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@webmink I disagree: use is always at least a micro-endorsement, desired or not. I admit this is likely a personality flaw in me.
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@mfoetsch I agree completely!
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@patrickniedzielski ...and I do think the medium is part of the problem: It's hard to have a coherent, civilized argument in 140-char bits.
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@webmink, there is a line between scolding & encouraging. I think ppl cross that line less than you indicate they do.
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@bkuhn The line-crossings are always more memorable as they are offensive rather than collegial.
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@webmink, IMO use of something w/strong network effects effectively becomes endorsement. Problem there w/ #Skype & #Flickr. Worse w/ former.
Richard Fontana likes this. -
@cwebber yes, i'm thinking on writing it using django
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@mfoetsch I've toyed with the idea of getting a status.net account; I too find the artificial character limit...limiting.
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@bkuhn My view is that Flickr does not have a strong network effect, especially when used primarily as a web image host for blog posts.
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@bkuhn ... and even if it did, it still would not be mandatory to install non-free software to participate.
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@bkuhn ... so while I remain circumspect it does not disturb me any more than any other web-only property.
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@bkuhn ... added to which the original founders did a relatively good job facilitating data & API openness, compared with most sites.
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@bkuhn ... By comparison Skype is an order of magnitude or more worse, incomparably more damaging than Flickr.
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@gabrielsaldana /join #mediagoblin on freenode plz
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@jancborchardt Cool :) I'm surprised how much response I'm getting pre-real announcement. More fire under my butt, in a good way.
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@cwebber I'm at downtown photoshooting a street ballet event right now, can we meet in a couple hours?
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@cwebber Sure, everyone is hoping you unveil a Flickr killer next month. Hope it's not too much pressure. :-)
Deb Nicholson likes this. -
@bkuhn Pretty sure it will even work without JavaScript (it used to in Stewart's day), although I disagree that JavaScript needs blocking.
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@bkuhn I agree but they will be sold like high fat, high salt, high sugar foods..convenient.
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@bkuhn Are web sites also a long-term threat? And if not, where is the line?
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@webmink,When Javascript programs are downloaded into your browser, you're receiving distribution of software (which is usually proprietary)
Kete Foy likes this. -
@bkuhn I understand your point, but it falls beyond the cut-off point where I include it in the list of windmills I tilt at :-)
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FTR #mediagoblin is a #totallysweet name. #awesome
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@gabrielsaldana Yes, just join the channel when possible, we'll talk when our time intersects over the next couple of days :)
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@mlinksva Thanks! Real reason I chose it is because I like drawing%agoblin-y creatures and knew I could make a logo :)
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Grumble grumble, really should find out why I get that %a in my notices with identica-mode some day.
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@mfoetsch Yikes :)
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@bkuhn Monopolists, they come and go.
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!mediagoblin braindump. More useful info / code soon. http://ur1.ca/3otl8
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@reality "The computer is the computer, the network is the network. Sorry about the confusion" -- "Sun Microsystems"
Sander likes this. -
@gabrielsaldana A street ballet sounds like an awesome thing to be photographing.
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@bkuhn No, you should have stopped working on GNU when it was finished, instead of continuing until `LD_DEBUG=all; ls` output 1200 lines.
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@bkuhn No, but we all have a personal point where we draw the line.
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@webmink What usually works better: me *saying* to my child smoking is bad? Or me not smoking myself? cc @fabsh #use #endorsement
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@mivael So you are now calling the free software community "children". Time to stop digging I think.
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@webmink I don't, you do :) Psychological methods are the same for children and adults btw.
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@mivael It's not especially relevant to a discussion of this topic though, which relates to where people draw lines.
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@mivael I'm working hard to be avoid being insulted by the implication I have no idea about the things you're lecturing me :-)
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@webmink No offense. I consider the analogy useful for the discussion. If you don't, please feel free to ignore it.
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@mivael It assumes all faults are equally bad & abstinence is the only remedy - an absolutism that prevents realistic attitudes & solutions.
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@webmink Abstinence is not the only remedy. But, when affordable, it's at times more convincing than verbal arguments. In my opinion.
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@bkuhn not trying to stir up the debate again, but i was under the impression you could see client-side javascript.
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@bkuhn Flash is needed for video support (no alternative) or for Slideshows (not sure "lightbox" is the alternative).
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@dougsportazine, often #Javascript sent to your browser is obfuscated;Even if not,it's usually distributed to you under a non- !FaiF license
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@hub Flash is not needed, it is imposed. There is !tinyogg. (X)HTML w/ <object> could be used for video. That is how !linternamagica works.
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@valkov how about WebM and the HTML5 video tag?
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@webmink the problem with Skype is much bigger, yeah, but that Flickr is a lesser problem doesn't make it ok, right?
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@webmink IMHO non-private use amounts to endorsement, the alternative being hypocrisy
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@fabsh with SaaS, you lose more freedom than with traditional proprietary software: you don't even get the software!
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@fabsh freedombox to the answer?
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@fabsh what?!? you could hear me shouting all the way over there?!? :-)
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@lxoliva Sorry, I disagree for the reasons I articulated already. No-one endorses every aspect of everything they use in their life.
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@webmink if that's true, then I'd say everyone is a bit hypocritical. endorsement may be undesired, but perception matters
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