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KDE does anything to get press these days, eh?
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@fabsh: Well many of the funding sources have dried up, you gotta advertise ;) http://ur1.ca/3ggqt
Eric Goddard likes this. -
@fabsh See we agree on so many things! My first thought was "So how does that make it better than anyone else?"
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@tante I wish KDE would just get over themselves and admitted they fucked up their 4.0 release. After that, we can talk.
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@tante Gnome 3 has a lot of problems and they might see a similar user exodus, but they aren't repeating the PR mistakes.
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@tante I personally think Gnome 3 will do just fine b/c lots of people object to Unity & KDE is still not 100% there yet.
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@tante Gnome 3 & Unity are still much closer to Gnome 2 so Gnome users might jump to Unity but not to KDE.
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@tante The real battle ahead will be Xfce/GnomeShell/Unity. I expect KDE will loose more significance still...
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@fabsh: I do not see that happening
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@fabsh: Don't think so, KDE has very dedicated believers, they'll stay strong.
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@fabsh: He's a troll, that's his job, don't bother.
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@tante I think that's a bit harsh. He seems to be a great dev, but you can take PR too far. Admiting your wrong sometimes doesn't hurt.
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@tante I dunno. I've seen them lose a lot of users, even here in Germany...
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@fabsh: He has to keep the community from falling apart in spite of the state of the software. An external enemy helps for that
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@fabsh: I don't believe it's really malice towards GNOME, it's just a need the KDE project has atm
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@tante I loved KDE 3.5.8+, I hated GNOME. Then came KDE 4.x and I'm a GNOME user now. (Although I still dislike much but KDE 4 is worse.)
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@stephanbeyer: You always lose users with big changes, I think that's just a fact of life
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@tante I agree on that. I also don't think it's malice. Zeal, maybe...
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@fabsh a) why does anyone owe *you* that? b) in the last 2 years there's been a LOT written/said/done reflecting ownership of challenges
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@tante er.. it's actually the opposite point i'm trying to make: i'm tired of the them/us & "enemy" mindset. i say, 'this sucks, here's how'
Gerard Braad — 吉拉德 likes this. -
@tante you say, "he's erecting an external enemy." WTF?! twisting things that way is precisely what i'm refering to. we can do better.
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@aseigo: If it really was about working together you probably shouldn't have done it the way you have.
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@aseigo: That really sounded more like trying to bring up a shitstorm
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@aseigo Where exactly did I say anyone owns me anything???
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@tante ok, provide an example of how to say what i said in 120 letters that works for you.
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@fabsh wait .. i thought you were about technical results? unless it's a chance to jab at something you don't use, but has commonality?
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@aseigo: If 120 letters are not sufficient to make yourself clear in a proper way, choose a different medium?
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@aseigo: It's not my duty to try to sanitize what you write.
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@fabsh or is this an object lesson in how to take a nice act and respond with something completely divisive about it anyways?
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@aseigo I have used KDE. It's just not my preference. And yes, it's about the result, not how you get to it.
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@aseigo What is your problem? In my opinion KDE messed up the 4.0 release and you are the last person to criticise Gnome 3. All I'm saying.
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@fabsh search for "I wish KDE would just get over" in your dents.
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@tante i'm not asking you to sanitize; i'm asking how one (me, you, anyone) can observe that taking shots at each other is --healthy;
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@aseigo No, I said I wish you'd admit the 4.0 release was a disaster.
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@tante it is, imho, something our communities need to internalize deeply. knowing how to comm it in a way that gets heard would be nice.
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@fabsh for the last time: i didn't crit gnome3. if i had, according to you gnome/you should accept it as feedback. but it's not what i said.
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@aseigo it's a german thing seems like
Dvd Mrsdn likes this. -
@fabsh when someone doesn't actually crit and yet you react, is it now evident why being civil is really important? e.g. "change patterns"
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@aseigo Of course you did. Saying they are in a "glass house" is criticism even if you deny it.
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@aseigo: a) Taking shots at each other is not healthy b) it still happens every day, everywhere c) why should the FLOSS commun. be different
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@aseigo Oh, you *do* criticise quite a lot. You just don't admit it. Don't try to paint yourself as the saint, a fight needs two people.
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@aseigo: in fact: If there is so much fighting over certain aspects, why try to "force" collaboration?
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@fabsh why? i'm really not sure how that matters. you don't use it, right? it isn't what i talked about, either. so can you explain?
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@aseigo: Collaboration either comes because devs want it to happen or it just doesn't.
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@tante many of us have been saying exactly that for years. changes? little. so i bring a real world object lesson to light.
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@tante we don't have to colab. i said as much in a recent blog entry. if we are honest about that lack of desire, wrong expectations avoided
zodmaner likes this. -
@tante everyone has been saying "we want to colab", however. some actions support that, others don't. and we need to decide which we want.
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@fabsh and yet i wasn't doing so then. i freely admit i criticise, hopefully constructively. but not the comment you jumped in on.
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@aseigo: Why? People who want to collaborate will, people who don't will not. Why try to enforce "policy"? What's the benefit?
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@tante it's not policy, it's aligning with intent. if i say "let's colab" and you invest in that then i fail to do so .. it doesn't work.
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@tante c.f. the recent canonical <-> gnome shell bruhaha, or dneary & my recent blogversation.
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@tante this mismatch of priorities and stated intentions has created endless issues (not the only challenge we face, but def one of them)
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@aseigo: TBH: Why not judge by actions instead of words? If you guys perceive GNOME as not collaborating, why not just do your thing?
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@aseigo: If what comes out of "doing your thing" works great it will be adopted. I thought that's what meritocracy was about?
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@fabsh you want to hash this out on your podcast, let's do it.
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@tante yes; however, at some point agreement is either found or the software never is interoperable. it takes coord at some point.
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@aseigo OK, I misunderstood you then. I apologise.
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@tante a) that sucks for our users, b) the stated intentions to date were "let's coop" c) it was made political: no coop is Bad(tm)
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@tante 3 different, but co-mingling, issues. years of history. untangling with maximum benefit is ++tricksy.
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@fabsh cheers :) ... (just so you know i do read and appreciate the pos & agreements; just stimes less to say in return in those cases ;)
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@aseigo: It would be neat if everything interoperated nicely, true. But you won't be able to enforce that in FLOSS contexts
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@aseigo: If I write software I care that it scratches my itch. Maybe somebody makes it interoperable with KDE land, maybe not
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@aseigo: I just don't see that complaining that people don't cooperate doesn't make them do so, it just starts fights that escalate
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@tante of course; not everything needs to. there are wins for some level of sharing.
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@aseigo No worries. I like a good discussion, doesn't worry me when it gets heated sometimes. :)
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@fabsh Depends what you think was wrong with KDE 4.0.
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@aseigo: Obviously. But by complaining you just get perceived as "that guy". Change in organizations does not come from the outside
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@tante i agree; pls realize this follows _years_ of actions and efforts "in the trenches". i'm not an outside observer. :)
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@marcusharrison It was clearly not ready.
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@tante If people claim they're going to work with you, then don't, I think you're in your right mind to complain about it.
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@aseigo: Summary: Complaints from the outside don't help, they just make the target close itself down.
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@tante E.G., "I'll invest £500 for your start-up." --> "Cool! Lets get to work then." --> "SYKE! Haha. Gotcha. Ha."
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@tante however at some point the ecosystem needs to be alerted, as it affects us all. quiet work stopped producing results a while ago. :(
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@aseigo: And in some groups of people KDE just hasn't got a good standing due to it being perceived as all marketing and spin doctoring
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@tante The only difference here is the currency. Not money, but time, code & users.
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@aseigo: So if there was a chance to bring more collaboration, a solely KDE person will always be ignored and fought.
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@fabsh Well, KDE have said it wasn't ready, they said at the time it wasn't ready and they continue to say that right now.
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@tante which brings us back to the initial point, does it not? :) (btw, i'd suggest calling M. Shuttleworth a "KDE person" is a stretch.)
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@fabsh The 4.0 release was meant as a foundation for developers, much like the Linux kernel's 1.0 release, not for end-users.
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@fabsh KDE have clearly stated that end users weren't meant to see the KDE SC4 series until 4.2. So, what are we blaming KDE for again?
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@aseigo: Shuttleworth is not a KDE person, right, but he is the leader of a GNOME fork so he's not a gnome person either
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@marcusharrison That was backpaddelling. Once they pinned "4.0" on it, they shouted "it's ready".
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@marcusharrison I'm really not interested in rehashing these bullshit arguments. They were bullshit then, they are worse now.
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@fabsh ... for developers. Which it was: you could make an app for 4.0 that would work in future versions. That's what 1.0 used to mean.
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@marcusharrison Comparing KDE 4.0 to the 1.0 release of the Linux kernel is so ridiculous you might as well wear a funny hat with it.
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@marcusharrison Do you really believe this crap?
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@fabsh It's what Linux kernel did; it's what GNU utils did; it's what Apache did. This isn't just KDE doing something on a tangent.
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@fabsh Correction: you're not interested in understanding why KDE did what they did. Right. Thought as much.
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@fabsh I watched KDE 4 through the alphas and betas and talked to developers during the process. Did you?
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@marcusharrison A kernel isn't a desktop environment. If you really can't see the difference there... Oo
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@marcusharrison I know why they did what they did: They fucked up and needed to cover their bare arse hanging in the breeze.
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@fabsh Then you won't have any problems explaining why, will you?
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@marcusharrison What I'm not interested in is bullshit fanboy garbage.
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@fabsh @marcusharrison just use eMate from the terminal then we don't have these arguments :)
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@marcusharrison I didn't talk to developers but I watched it alright. The same way I'm watching Gnome 3 now.
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@marcusharrison Because a DE is meant for end users, a kernel is meant for integration and is never seen by those, you moron.
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@fabsh So just to clarify: 1. your understanding of the developer is less than mine; 2. your want to understand is less than mine.
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@mdominick EMACS OS, I've said it for years! ;)
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@alisonchaiken LOL. I'm not so sure it really *is* a joke... ;)
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@fabsh And you think Aaron is a troll. Laughable.
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@marcusharrison I don't care about the devs. I am talking about users and end products. KDE 4.0 wasn't ready. It was shit PR to call it 4.0.
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@fabsh Actually, a DE is meant for developers first, end users second. This is pretty elementary stuff.
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@marcusharrison Then why give it a final release version number, rather than calling it 4.0 RC, or something of that ilk?
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@marcusharrison Laugh all you want, you already look like a nutter, might as well laugh. Here's your hat.
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@fabsh Was hilarious, at any rate. Emacs org mode is just as ill-considered. After all, spreadsheets in emacs: WHY?
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@marcusharrison Wow. If you think that, no wonder you liked the mess that was KDE 4.0. If you think that, why don't you use E17?
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@psquid Again; saying, "You won't need to change your code after this point" with a .0 release is pretty standard in open-source. Or, was.
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@alisonchaiken You should ask @bkuhn that. Hahaha... :)
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@fabsh I didn't like the mess that was 4.0. Obviously. It was a mess. But the APIs were set: developers could, "code safely".
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@fabsh That was the whole point in marking it a .0 release at all. Wasn't that already made clear about a thousand times?
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@fabsh So you tell me, then: what's a DE without any applications? Where do applications come from?
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@marcusharrison No. All you are doing is parrott marketing bullshit. .0 has meant "ready for general use" in consumer software for ages.
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@marcusharrison At 4.0, KDE was a consumer desktop not a hobby kernel just starting out.
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@fabsh If I were you, I would care a hell of a lot more about devs than end users. Remind me, which group is giving you all this free stuff?
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@fabsh KDE "isn't there yet? I don't know what you mean by "there," but I think it's been there for a couple of years.
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@alisonchaiken Say hello to him from me. :)
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@marcusharrison I guess you are mistaken an IDE for Desktop Environment, #LOL emacs way of living/working
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@marcusharrison What does that have anything to do with it? Stick to the topic,
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@marcusharrison I do a podcast for end users. I relate to end users. I'm not anti-devs but they aren't my focus.
Andy C likes this. -
@fabsh Besides: an open-source project with lots of developers and no end users still thrives. Can't say the same about the opposite.
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@fabsh What you think a .0 release means is a matter of perspective. Clearly. Otherwise, Linux wouldn't be past 1.0 yet.
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@fabsh And end users give you all this free software to use, right? ... right?
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@fabsh @marcusharrison why are you two arguing about something that happened three years ago? you'll never settle this.
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@alisonchaiken There are a lot of nice things about having a plaintext combo TODO / note-taking / authoring system in your editor
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@marcusharrison Then go back to your devs and develop in your little closet. I'm in the real world. It's tough out here, BS gets punished.
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@fabsh Wait, first you're saying it's not ready, then you're saying 4.0 is a consumer desktop. Pick one! KDE knew which was which.
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@alisonchaiken Maybe it's because I have a very strong case of ADD, but for me, org-mode has been life changing, no exaggeration.
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@fabsh Is a DE for developers or end users? If it's for end users, where do the apps come from? Simple logic.
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@marcusharrison Are you actually this stupid? Yes, it IS a consumer desktop and NO the actual released code was crap, that's why it flopped.
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@fabsh Oh man, your well-reasoned and thought out arguments are so above me. Well, that's what I MIGHT be saying...
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@marcusharrison Jesus, you are stupid. The developers DEVELOP it FOR the end users. If you just develop for devs, it's a hobby project.
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@psquid I'll admit, it *did* cause problems with distribution developers, who are used to seeing .0 and think, "End-user ready". Shame...
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@fabsh I think I will. Now, you go back to your proprietary, consumer-level OS that users pay to have developed specifically for them.
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@fabsh and now it's by far the most advanced DE on the market, free or not. i wish i had flops like that.
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@fabsh Because, you know, since open-source developers DO produce software *that they want to make* *because they enjoy making software*...
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@marcusharrison And why wouldn't they? Regardless of how it may have worked at one point, at the point KDE 4.0 released, "end-user ..
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@marcusharrison .. ready" was already the common interpretaion of .0 version numbers.
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@fabsh ... you might as well go to a large company that *you are paying to make software for YOU*. There! Problem solved. We're all happy.
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@psquid I'm not blaming them: they were well within their right to think that. It's just a shame KDE didn't shout louder.
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@fabsh Oh. So the developers *aren't* users then. Right. Gotcha.
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@fabsh aren't all Free Software contributions a hobby?
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@shantanutushar OK, I'll jump in here and suggest that some are commercially-backed with commercial interests, but KDE isn't.
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@shantanutushar As in, KDE is definitely a community, not a company. Other than that, yeah... :)
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@buffalopete Thanks for making me laugh :D
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Nett: http://wiki.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/Bild:Entscheidungsdiagramm.png #Zensus11 !Piraten #AKZensus
brxs and hereisjohnny like this. -
@fabsh I'm a DEV I develop software FOR users...to use... doesn't matter if I'm at work or coding a "hobby" ... to a DEV it shouldn't matter
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@marcusharrison What? Gnome 3 on Linux?
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@buffalopete I am not talking about now. I was purely talking about the KDE 4.0 release. Please ignore the trolls and stick to the topic.
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@marcusharrison No idea what you're on about. Stick to the topic and my actual arguments or STFU.
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@fabsh You're complaining at me about end-user readiness, then in the next breath saying, "I'll move to the user-friendly Gnome 3"?
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@fabsh OK, now I'm quite certain you're a troll.
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@marcusharrison Developers are by definition not end users.
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@shantanutushar Tell that to Google or Red Hat.
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@fabsh A troll with a very, VERY short attention span, apparently.
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@fabsh So wait, KDE developers don't use KDE? And Gnome developers don't use Gnome?
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@marcusharrison I didn't move. I've used it for weeks now to inform end users about it.
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@marcusharrison Sorry, some of us actually have to work.
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@marcusharrison A troll with a very popular podcast. ;)
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@fabsh you can't talk about one without the other. kde 4.0 was a means to an end. that end is a huge success.
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@fabsh OK then. I'm using Gnome 3 and I want to switch my computer off. How do I do it?
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@fabsh Then don't have the audacity to blame ME when YOU forget what you're arguing about. Talk about rude!
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@fabsh full ACK! KDE 4.0 wasn't good for endusers it was something for devs more or less. KDE&Gnome3 have definitely learned from it i hope
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@marcusharrison What you don't understand is that I have #tigerblood and am #winning while you are just a troll. #truthtorpedo
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@buffalopete Keep deluding yourself on that one, buddy...
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@marcusharrison Oh, I've always been rude. Never denied it. Pisshead. :D
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@fabsh come back and say that again after gnome 3 comes out. BEG ME FOR A TASKBAR, SUCKA! DANCE! ;)
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@fabsh Your incredible insight and wisdom is a sight to behold. Oh, no, wait, my mistake, your dent was truly worthless.
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@fabsh And yet it hasn't made up for your sheer lack in reasoning and comprehension ability. Yes, you serve as a true role-model. ¬_¬
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@alisonchaiken How dare you mock org-mode?!! I use it every day! Not the spreadsheets though :)
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@marcusharrison What makes you think I'm doing tech support for you? You've clearly shown your a pathetic fanboy only interested in ..
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@marcusharrison .. attacking, not discussion. You've already wasted more time than you deserve.
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@buffalopete I've been using Gnome 3 for weeks, tested it for months. It has problems but generally I really like it.
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@fabsh Come on, don't tell me you spent any amount of time trying to come up with these non-arguments. It doesn't take much thought.
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@fabsh By the way, the answer is, "Click the top-right menu, hold ALT and click what was, 'Suspend' and should now be, 'Power Off'."
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@fabsh See, at least SOME of us know what we're talking about.
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@fabsh no accounting for taste i suppose. we are definitely not going to agree on this.
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@buffalopete No, and we don't have to. It's all good. I'm a huge fan of diversity and competition as long as we admitit's there.
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@marcusharrison I am in Gnome 3 right now. Who do you think you are fooling?
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@fabsh And how much do you know about KDE? Evidently, not very much at all. That was my point, but I should have known you wouldn't get it.
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@alisonchaiken Wait, you were joking about that? I put everything in my life into Org mode, on your recommendation. #April14thIsComing
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