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@fontana (well, other options: send everyone to law school or beg them to take it on faith. Neither is really a good option, in my opinion.)
Tuesday, 19-Apr-11 15:40:20 UTC from web-
2 weeks to review Project #Harmony draft? srsly? unintended consequences would linger for years. decades even, cf #gplv2. !fs
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@bkuhn cause in their heart of hearts they know?
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@bkuhn would not surprise me. #FightForFreedom
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@bkuhn I'm glad u and others are calling attention to these issues; I find them very important yet wouldn't have heard of them otherwise
Osama Khalid likes this. -
@bkuhn Can't projects just choose not to use "Harmony" if they don't like it?
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@loliver, thanks! I'll hope you'll educate the communities you frequent. We shouldn't accept terms pushed on us by corporations.
ashcrow likes this. -
@bkuhn how do you do the extra emacs chars again? sorry to bother
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@tekk, are you asking how I generate #Unicode in !Emacs? ucs-insert is the key function. See: http://pastebin.ca/2047200 for details.
Rui Seabra and Christopher Allan Webber like this. -
@bkuhn no, there was some key chord that had a smiling face, greek letters, stars, etc. in by default
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@bkuhn similar to C-x 8(maybe a variation of it) but at interactive function
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@tekk, I gave you what you needed. Map bkuhn/insert-unicode-char-by-name-interactive to a key sequence & you're done.
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@bkuhn alright then, I'll look into that. the builtin is gonna kill me though....
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@bkuhn YES, that's the *default* unicode insert!
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@bkuhn sorry if I come off as pushy there, I've been trying to remember it for forever, nearly at wit's end
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@bkuhn Great little functions! Thanks.
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@bkuhn I wonder if default unicode insertion might be made nicer with ido- wrapping?
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@bkuhn I like the emacs default, but I can't find it
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@eximious: it's harder to use something that doesn't exist...
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@bkuhn: You should stop always always speak of Canonical. You would be more credible. Actually, you just look like a kid.
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Arc Riley and Osama Khalid like this.
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@fabsh I love that the kernel pulls 3.69 changes/hour but a month isn't long enough to review legalese you guys won't participate in anyway.
Andy C likes this. -
@fabsh Now since I know you'll go binary on me, I'll spell out for you that I'm not thrilling to the prospect of assigning (C) to Harmony.
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@fabsh But that's not my fucking point.
reality likes this. -
@joshix When will you boneheads get the fact that law isn't software development. You can't roll it back once it's passed!
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@fabsh actually you can, it's just WAY WAY WAY harder ;)
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@fabsh That's still not the point. I'll give you time to think of what the point might actually be. And I won't call you names.
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@tekk In reality, it as good as never happens. Studying political science has taught me that....
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@joshix I know what my point is and I'm sticking by it. Licenses and legalese need to be water proofed. That happens over months not weeks.
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@fabsh You'll find I never said I disagree with that. You might also find what I *was* saying, if you, you know, read it.
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@jeffg Dunno, I am inherently suspicious of any project that calls itself "harmony". Reeks of newspeak.
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@jeffg besides, contributor agreements are evil, and naming them "Harmony" feels more like marketing than legalese
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@joshix you two lost me, what *are* you two arguing about?
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@joshix Meh. Too much work. What are we talking about again? Who are you, anyway? Hey.... nice hat! :D
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@fabsh This isn't law, and Harmony isn't a governing body; one can always relicense something in a later version
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@bkuhn should we draft our own sensible ones?
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@erez And how often has that happened before? Be realistic.
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@erez I was comparing the rate of change in linux to the excitement generated by a too-short review period for a corner-case legal document.
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@erez "Hey! The process might be screwed but we can always fix it later!" Sounds like the Microsoft approach to me.... :X
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@erez Although, to be fair, Linux is almost certainly the best Windows clone out there.
Ed Morgan likes this. -
@fabsh Actually, a contributors agreement makes re-licensing easier, for better or for worse
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@joshix You mean Ubuntu
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@fabsh Anyway, my point is that Harmony is bad, two weeks, or two years, doesn't matter
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@joshix you eat your own troll-food on that
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@erez No, I don't mean Ubuntu. I'm not terribly interested in the userland. It's unspeakably bad. I care about linux; the kernel.
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@winniemiel05 Well, it's difficult not to talk about #Canonical when they are a (the?) driving force behind the project in question.
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@joshix You are wrong on both counts. :D
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@erez I know. Re-licensing can be a problem but it isn't that bad that we should give up freedeom and/or control for that.
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@erez "one project, two licenses"
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@erez I totally agree there. I'm just attacking #Harmony where I can b/c I think it's bad. It's called politics. ;)
Richard Fontana likes this. -
@clacke: I know, but it's not always harmony. He always says bad of canonical for everrything, right or wrong
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Hey @joshix, if GNU/Linux userland is so bad, can you get over here and install Plan 9 for me? Thanks
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rpcutts likes this.
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@joshix: Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
joshix likes this. -
@trashbird1240 You ever notice how `LD_DEBUG=all; ls` outputs 1230-some lines? Yeah, it's a good userland.
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@mo6020 It's a bitch, ain't it? One sometimes almost gets the crazy idea these GNU people are, you know, amateurs. But nah!
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joshix likes this.
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@joshix Professional is another word for mediocre and overpaid amateur with an ego complex.
Paul Elms likes this. -
@fabsh You know, guy, when I was a journalist I didn't have to make up my own radio show to do it. Just sayin.
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@fabsh Seriously, tho, let's just box for the title. The Thrilla In, um, Netphen!
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@joshix You are clearly to awesome for me. LOL
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@joshix I told you before, I don't box. I only fight to win. The rule their is to bring a better weapon than your opponent.
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@joshix Yeah, because professionals never brush errors under the rug. Nope.
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@jasonriedy But see, I get paid hourly for the sweeping. And that's all that really matters to me.
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@jasonriedy I don't think he's saying professionals never make errors so much as decrying the popular fallacy that: amateur > pro.
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@frankenspock Indeed. But why explain when you can ESCALATE! I always say.
frankenspock likes this. -
@joshix: Hmmm...I'm not getting that result...all I get is a list of files
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@joshix: Have you driven a Ford lately?
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@trashbird1240 You pipe it to `wc -l` to count the lines, you Unix master.
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@joshix: I can count the lines I get on one hand: that's how much of a Unix master I am
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@joshix: I'm not saying you're wrong about GNU/Linux, I'm just saying I don't understand what's so much better about Plan 9
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@trashbird1240 You will have to export LD_DEBUG if you use a bash; you will have to redirect stderr to stdout to pipe to wc.
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@mo6020 For the record & an example: You did understand immediately what I meant about how much is linked into ls(1), yes?
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@joshix: OK now I get it, so what's the explanation for this error output?
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@trashbird1240 That the program to list fucking directory contents links in god, the universe, and everything & its kid sister, too.
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@trashbird1240 And next year it will be 1500 lines of output. 10000 lines in 5 years. It's not error; look up what LD_DEBUG env var means.
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@fontana I totally agree with that from what I've seen and heard.
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@fabsh I'm not snappy per say, I'm tired, and my eyes hurt, and I've just wasted time
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@trashbird1240 Now, genuinely no cruelty, but can you see how it seems like many say"I don't know how to unix, but what's wrong with linux?"
reality likes this. -
@joshix: educate me, please, why shouldn't it do that? (don't just tell me I don't get it; I know I don't)
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@mo6020 Thank you for letting me force you to answer redundantly. @trashbird1240 See, unix is a lingua franca when you know it.
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@maloki Not sure how that's my fault....
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@trashbird1240 now to get to the point that's all broken up b/c of 140 chars, I don't care much about "better". Here's how I see it: ...
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@joshix: Huh? I can't even decipher your statement much less see your point (as much as I'd like to)
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@trashbird1240 Because it lists files. Why would it need thousands of libs to do that? What if you had to maintain ls(1)?
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@trashbird1240 What do you imagine the performance implication of all that linking is? What happens when ONE of those libs changes?
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@trashbird1240 Do any of those ideas make sense? (I really am trying.)
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@trashbird1240 Now Plan 9's ls(1) is 326 lines of C. You could read and understand it right now. In the time I take to write this.
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@trashbird1240 ... it includes 4 headers. Includes on Plan 9 do not include includes, so that's really actually it.
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@reality It's not actually about Plan 9. It's about that which you're constantly complaining you're not being taught. Don't be cute.
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@joshix Anyway I get what you were talking about, I just thought I'd apply... Cute... to the situation?
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@joshix Just out of interest and to satisfy my curiousity, do you know how FreeBSD's ls stacks up?
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@reality Ok, maybe a little cute was called for. I get all edgy about this topic. It gives one those feelings of being dangerously sane.
reality likes this. -
@reality How is which possible? That includes should not include includes? Or that the example ls(1) is so small?
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@joshix That includes don't include includes. Do you mean that they're written so they don't (and shouldn't be)?
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@joshix Can you re-explain the statement in quotation marks?
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@reality Surely you mean Britain's Is Doomed?
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@psquid Yeah that thing
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@mo6020 Considerably smaller, but I can't conjure the number right now.I can't remember exactly how to make it spit it out.
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@joshix: I'm looking at GNU ls right now http://ur1.ca/3v40o I'll look at Plan 9 later; GNU's ls is in GNU style for one thing
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@joshix: I'll see if I think a bare comparison of amount of text is a valid comparison
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@joshix So you mean the morass of dependencies that most distros put into everything? The 100+ updates because one library changed?
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@mo6020 But you can get a quick picture with just ldd(1). (Which shows BSD ls links ncurses --- eww.)
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@reality Yes, plan 9 headers don't include other headers, the libs aren't muddled like that. See the last item of http://ur1.ca/366r
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@trashbird1240 The statement in quotation marks means that those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.
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@trashbird1240 Or, put another way, if you have for background only gnu, how could you know what's wrong with gnu?
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@winniemiel05,Do you believe for-profit companies should dictate #CLA for !Free Software projects? You believe they shouldn't be questioned?
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@winniemiel05,actually,most of my criticisms of !Canonical were #Harmony -related. #Shuttleworth's been on 1 yr campaign culminating in this
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@bkuhn I obviously made that point very poorly, though, because it didn't get across and that's not the reader's fault.
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@bkuhn I was tying to say it bemuses me that we can screech about a legal framework but not, say, about inotify.
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@joshix: Well, you're right, but I don't see my background in Unix (or GNU) hampering my ability to get work done
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@joshix,I think you underestimate time it takes to review these sorts of docs & comment coherently: ~8 hrs for an expert;~20 hrs for newbie
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@joshix: I see your point
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@joshix: HOWEVER Plan 9 AFAIK had a head start in having no concerns for compatibility; this was THE primary concern for GNU #open_computing
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@lnxwalt300 Indeedly, I doodly. Diddly.
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@bkuhn Dude, I can only tell you I agree they are being oh-so-typically-Canonical about Harmony so many times. I agree. I agree.
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joshix likes this.
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@trashbird1240 There's the APE environment if you want to look at it for the compatibility angle. It hasn't been 1985 for a long time now.
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@winniemiel05 we talking about same @bkuhn? dude's trust of even the most !faif dedicated for-profit corpos approaches zero.
Richard Fontana likes this. -
@bkuhn The only place I can even quibble with what you've said on Harmony is that it might just take the expert even longer than the newbie.
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@bkuhn Unless he's actually a lawyer. ;)
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@erez i disagree on CLAs being blanket #evil, but certainly all are potentially !disturbing.
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@bkuhn agreed. I respect and understand your general distrust of FPCs' motivations, though.
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@bkuhn @joshix it was suggested to me by @allisonrandal that 20 mins enough. As newbie took me that much to parse first few paragraphs.
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@sazius I'd like to think you're exaggerating but IIRC she did actually say that in that big long context, didn't she?
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@sazius,Indeed;I started "how long" discussion from @allisonrandal's 20 min suggestion. Now it's case in point of how disingenuous that was.
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@joshix, this is one of many reasons why I think law firms are fundamentally flawed. Inside counsel has fewer such issues.
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@bkuhn Just. say. LOL. and. stop. trying. to. save. the. world. Just for 5 seconds. Just see how it feels.
Mike Linksvayer and rpcutts like this. -
@bkuhn Nah, I'm kidding. I'm glad you care so I don't have to. All the time.
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@joshix Does not compute. Error! Error!
joshix likes this. -
@bkuhn Yeah, and seems much more for a nonexpert like me, since the language is legalese, each word loaded with legal meaning...
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@bkuhn There is,btw, no way for anyone who has spent as much time discussing lepers & crooks w great lawyers as I have can say you're wrong.
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@sazius That's really useful feedback. Could you post a list of what was most difficult to wade through to the mailing list?
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@fontana examples?
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@fontana curious about examples of improper metaphors, not improper metaphor users.
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@fontana i was traveling to a wedding at the time and hence feeling charitable :)
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@allisonrandal Not so much a list of specific things, just as non-lawyer I'm not sure if certain words have different technical meaning.
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@allisonrandal That's why I would feel more comfortable if independent experts would have time to review and comment on it thoroughly.
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@fontana I don't think anyone is underestimating corporate influence in this conversation, which may be part of why the pitch is so high.
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@joshix: My point is that Plan 9 ls has only been designed to work on Plan 9; GNU ls was designed to work on BSD, Ultrix, Irix, ...
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@winniemiel05 Can't say Canonical is doing much right these days. They do deserve scrutiny, given they are a very influential FLOSS corp.
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@clacke: They do a lot bad, I know it. But not everything. Unity is really good. For Ubuntu, for Linux, and even for Gnome
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@fontana http://tieguy.org/blog/2011/04/17/looking-for-a-programming-analogy-if-there-is-one/ @tieguy being !disturbing? I don't see harm.
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@mlinksva it wasn't a reference to me (given the timing). Bridging btw cultures is always hard and lossy, so we do the best we can.
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@trashbird1240 Portable Plan 9 ls(1): http://ur1.ca/3vn1m , if you would like to compare with GNU ls: http://ur1.ca/3vn5a
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@trashbird1240 Difference next to nothing to do with portability (to near-identical sys interfaces); it's all proliferation of "features".
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joshix likes this.
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@reality I think so too. I aspire to writing things so straightforward. In whatever language.
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@reality Plan 9 ls is so beatifully simple. :O
joshix likes this. -
@mlinksva surely by now you've realized that @fontana's identi.ca M.O. is all provocative insinuation. #jello #wall #disturbing
Kat Walsh likes this. -
@fontana I didn't realize it was a controversial view. The entire #disturbing phenomenon is basically coded back-channel.
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@fontana the former.
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@winniemiel05 Explain why, given that Canonical requires copyright assignment and Unity therefore never can be an official part of GNOME.
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@clacke Because code isn't everything. It will force Gnome do better things, as KDE, and it can give them ideas
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@winniemiel05 Competition is great, no doubt. Does not exclude cooperation, though. By guarding their privileges, !Canonical is opting out.
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@winniemiel05 So, Unity is good for Gnome in the same way that Mac OSX and Microsoft Windows are?
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@winniemiel05 Unity, being FaiF, is of course better for Gnome than OSX or Windows. Would be even better if people could work on even terms.
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@clacke: Yes, I think the only problem is that Gnome and Canonical people do not talk. It possible colaborate with Gnome, as with Canonical
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@clacke: Debian do it for them twice. And it seem to work well
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@joshix: well there you go; creeping featurism is pervasive in GNU; we all know that
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@trashbird1240 Oh, Johnny. I forgot you were there. You may go now.
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@fontana all learning by analogy is inevitably lossy; should always be couched in disclaimer and explanation. Still, often no other option.
Kat Walsh likes this.
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