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@fontana not what I want with my #BYSA photos though. I want the Freedoms over the combined work that I extend to the user.
Monday, 18-Apr-11 23:11:41 UTC from web-
@bkuhn, I'd like to see proof that Canonical and Shuttleworth have a sinister plan to force individuals to sign away their copyrights.
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@chromatic, I've written heavily about these plans on my blog; #Brock, @jonobacon, #Shuttleworth, #Silber refuse to answer questions on it.
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@chromatic, @allisonrandal told me she's working to end this at !Canonical & I believe her, yet most #Harmony configs have similar problems.
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Bradley M. Kuhn
Canonical Ltd.
, The GNU General Public License
, Richard Stallman Political Notes
, chromatic
@chromatic, Also, @rms wrote up some assurance texts that would help defend !GPL in ©AA's & !Canonical refused to even talk to me about them
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@chromatic,I've more examples;most are on my blog;Of course,I can't prove what's in #Shuttleworth's heart,but his actions indicate bad plans
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@bkuhn Demonising those folks won't help fix anything IMO.
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@vvillenave, 'Twas amazing Jane #Silber would show up at her first !GNOME Advisory Board meeting just to say something so anti-community.
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@bkuhn I don't think it's a stonewall; I think it's recognition of a fundamental philosophical difference. & I believe Allison is key to fix
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@vvillenave,basically,her point: when companies put out lots of code,they should control whole project,since other contributions are smaller
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@bkuhn I'm shocked that so many people are shocked. Canonical didn't set off well (Arch).
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@webmink, it's stonewall: They say they *must* have something. They give a discredited reason, then refuse to take any more questions on it.
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@jasonriedy 5 patches upstream in 7 years. Even Apple shames Canonical, viz FreeBSD.
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@bkuhn That "benefit deserved ∝ effort expended" meme is probably the most dangerous mis-statement in all of software freedom.
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@bkuhn: what did Jane say?
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@bkuhn I've tried a few times to explain why (most recent: http://wp.me/pH8ns-Yq ) but still don't think I've nailed it.
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@bkuhn what was the context in which we made the quote - is there a transcript or recording of the call?
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I agree fully! http://wp.me/pH8ns-Yq
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@bkuhn With such a logic, we're back to the 70s and the invention of proprietary software :-)
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@joshix Ah, but Apple shived even more projects.
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@jasonriedy Remember I lack the brain centers that generate a sense of injustice. Or when to shut up.
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@bkuhn I'd like to have the transcript. I don't like the direction Canonical is going with things like this and would like to reference it
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@bkuhn It sounds very un-Jane-like, so I'd guess she said something that could be interpreted multiple ways, and didn't mean that one.
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@bkuhn I just know how often things can be taken out of context, and it doesn't sound like Jane, hence wishing to see the context.
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@bkuhn I do believe a CLA would be a better fit for Canonical, but I don't agree that CAA is evil.
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@allisonrandal, I don't think ©AA is #evil either; but it needs a lot of assurances back to assigner to be tolerable, as do #CLA's too.
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@bkuhn Projects have the right to choose their culture. You may think everyone should use GPL, but shouldn't demonize them for using BSD.
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@allisonrandal @jonobacon Looking forward to Mark's blog post clarifying this. http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/654#comment-346914
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@bkuhn IIRC, you're looking for "only copyleft licenses". Anything else?
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@fontana 100% agreed. Would love to hear @allisonrandal's view.
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@fontana The problem is unequal rights in the community, not the mechanism by which they arise.
Clacke Moved to Unlimited likes this. -
@fontana Thanks for the clarification; I'm glad to hear that I've interpreted you wrongly.
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@bkuhn Just... wow. That Silber quote made me see red. Are there minutes available online? I would like to read any context
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@allisonrandal, when did I demonize anyone who choses BSD license? Why would you accuse me of that without evidence?
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Bradley M. Kuhn
Richard Stallman Political Notes
, Simon Phipps
, Richard Fontana
, Mark Shuttleworth
@fontana @webmink, I note @sabdfl misquotes @rms in his comment you ref. RMS has always called proprietary relicensing "barely legitimate".
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@allisonrandal, I wrote down the quote when she said it, as she said it, b/c it was so over the top. As I said, #mmeeks can confirm it.
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@allisonrandal, I think #Harmony is only legitimate if it points out most projects do fine with no #CLA beyond assent to their own license.
Clacke Moved to Unlimited likes this. -
The last bastion of those trying to discredit a copyleft advocate is still to purposely say that advocate opposes non-copyleft. Sad.
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@bkuhn That's "GPL cultures" vs "BSD cultures" not licenses. i.e. copyleft vs permissive.
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@bkuhn Embracing diversity is right on the front page, and acknowledging that CAs are optional is top center of several FAQ pages.
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@fontana Indeed, and to me that is part of the value of a CA, being very clear what the relationship is between contributor and project.
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@webmink It's also a complete red herring. Any company can hold _control_ by not release under a FOSS license in the first place.
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@webmink The fundamental tenet of software freedom (and founding vision of Canonical) is that collaboration builds better code than control.
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@allisonrandal But then they don't get the advantage of the open source brand. The picture is bigger than you imply.
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@bkuhn I've been saying that from the beginning & have been actively ignored.
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@bkuhn For him that constitutes an endorsement. I have heard him explain his position & remain surprised by it.
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@fontana The goal is not deception if the entire work is covered by that promise.
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@fontana That wasn't the goal. They were the token result of internal conflict to level the playing field.
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@fontana My actual goal was to get that commitment for the whole work, but getting to that point was a long-term project.
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@fontana Agree, and that's a major flaw. None of the agreements at present prevent community inequity.
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@webmink Where is the open source brand an advantage? Not for consumers. Most Firefox users, for example, have no clue about open source.
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@webmink Ubuntu's user-base is moving in the same direction, which means open source brand is only an advantage for collaboration.
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@allisonrandal In developer-focussed software (esp. for infrastructure use) & as a consequence is widely gamed.
speeddefrost likes this. -
@allisonrandal Which is where Canonical has chosen to use non-open approaches...
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@webmink Canonical chose the hard, pure path of "we will never charge a license fee for our distro".
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@webmink That means one of two things: a) they truly believe in software freedom, or b) they're insanely stupid to choose such a hard path.
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@allisonrandal Note that I am not among Canonical's critics.
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@webmink I don't see insane stupidity, I see honest grappling with how to keep a company afloat on alternative income sources.
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@allisonrandal or c) the business model they envisaged sought profit elsewhere
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@allisonrandal You did note I'm not a critic of Canonical? It isn't a requirement for use of identi.ca despite evidence to the contrary :-)
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@allisonrandal BTW a b & c are not mutually exclusive :-)
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@allisonrandal What is better: doing 99% free software and charging for a license or proprietarising stuff to not charge a fee?
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@webmink All the experiments in alternative income sources are motivated by holding true to "no licensing fee".
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@allisonrandal That seems to my like Canonical is sacrificing software freedom to not charge their main user base.
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@webmink Aye, c is compatible with either a or b. :)
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@fabsh Not charging a licensing fee is a fundamental part of the GPL definition of software freedom.
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@allisonrandal That's bullshit. How is the RHEL license & support fee not GPL compliant?
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@allisonrandal Actually you are free to charge a licensing fee under the GPL; you just can't take any action against non-payment :-)
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@bkuhn they won't even answer when someone asks for an alternative text/assurance that a proprietary version won't be made. I know 1st hand.
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@fabsh Because it's a support/distribution fee, not a license fee.
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@allisonrandal You are twisting my words. My point was Red Hat's business model doesn't sacrifice software freedom.
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@webmink GPLv3: "you may not impose a license fee, royalty, or other charge for exercise of rights granted under this License"
Ricardo Dias Marques likes this. -
@allisonrandal Does not stop you charging a fee that is not conditioned on withholding the rights in the GPL but is still paid at initiation
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@allisonrandal Not aware of anyone trying it, mind you.
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@fabsh There's also some legal ambiguity whether a distro can be considered a "mere aggregation", which gives it a little extra leeway.
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@fabsh I agree Red Hat's model is fine. Not better or worse than Canonical's model, just different.
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@allisonrandal IMO, it's better since all their software is FaiF. Canonical can't say that.
Rob Myers likes this. -
@allisonrandal Of course, Red Hat doesn't do desktop stuff, which is the downside.
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@allisonrandal To many, /the/ fundamental tenet of software freedom is that freedom is important as such, without regard to quality.
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@fontana,I find it !disturbing that @allisonrandal is perpetuating that distributing on same CD may not be mere aggregation. Why !GPL FUD!?!
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@bkuhn Where was a CD mentioned?
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@fontana Card deck?
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@fontana Given the Gosling EMACS context I think that's very likely.
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@allisonrandal @jonobacon, why'd it be "un-Jane-like" to echo !Canonical's dictator's stated position? Isn't that how dictatorship works?
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@fontana,Is it ever possible for a dictator to not represent the thing he's a dictator of? Maybe I just don't understand autocratic regimes?
Kat Walsh likes this. -
@fontana, #Shuttleworth used my personal blog response to his position as a weapon to cause me serious trouble at my job, so turnabout, no?
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@allisonrandal no, the fundamental tenet of !freesoftware is that recipients deserve freedom. quality is less important than freedom.
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@allisonrandal you confuse the tenets of !freesoftware and “open source” http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html
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@bkuhn because I have known Jane and Mark for over four years and the "don't deserve GPL rights" bit doesn't sound like Jane or Mark.
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@bkuhn serious trouble at your job? What happened? Feel free to tell me privately if you are not comfortable sharing publicly.
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@fontana: in my experience is not the view of Mark or Jane. Sounds like a quote taken out of context. I would like to see the transcript.
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@fontana: yeah, I am not saying it wasn't said, but knowing Jane/Mark it sounds fishy to me, so I suspect contextual bits are missing.
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@fontana but that is exactly what we little people expect to do. You want the goodwill that comes with a #copyleft #Free license, expect it.
drew Roberts likes this. -
@bkuhn perhaps there is a third thing between mere aggregation and a derivative they is seldom discussed?
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@jonobacon, I already told you about it. It was a year ago. We talked about it at LCS last year (about 13 months ago).
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@bkuhn: I honestly don't recall what happened, could you summarize over email?
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@fontana if the "container" gets a copyright it *has* to be more than "mere" aggregation.
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@allisonrandal that is certainly not fundamental tenet of Free Software. That tenet would likely be Freedom. No?
Rob Myers likes this. -
@allisonrandal ok but I don't see the relevance. BSD is more permissive & levels playing field, CAA often does the opposite...
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@webmink I guess you should think 'neccesairy evil
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@webmink (unfinished last post) as long as the company contributes back and has a reasonable policy...
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@bkuhn ... and here's me being happy that didn't work out...
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@allisonrandal they choose not to ask $ but no promise to contribute, share or copy-left. I rather have those promises instead of 'gratis'
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@allisonrandal d. it's a good marketing strategy for them
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@fabsh RedHat does more desktop stuff than Canonical if you look at contributions, remember ;-) btw I GPL beats gratis as a choice...
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@allisonrandal you loose all your points and have to start over !FAIL
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@sdanna The four freedoms are about using, copying, modifying, and redistributing software. That is collaborative development.
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@allisonrandal: they *enable* collaborative development. they doesn't presuppose it. initiatives that do so have problems.
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@allisonrandal collab. dev is but one important reason to care about the 4 freedoms. PS Thank you for your work on #Parrot!
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@fontana surely it *has* to be "creative" aggregation or it would not be able to be copyrighted. to me creative aggr is not a subset of mere
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@fontana not sure, almost reads that the compilation copyright must be as Free as the least restrictive included work.
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@robmyers Hard to make fine distinctions in 140 chars. Thanks for the gentle correction and the benefit of the doubt.
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@zotz IM[probably fringe]O creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/legalcode doesn't unambiguously say contextual use of image is collection…
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@zotz …so I conservatively license, eg entire presentation BY-SA if any image I use is BY-SA…
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@zotz … http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CC_Attribution-ShareAlike_Intent (3) says scope of copyleft will only increase…
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@zotz … so make sure you campaign incessantly for increase in copyleft scope in 4.0 discussion. :-)
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@fontana probably not avg BY-SA licensor (thus "fringe") though minority who have considered realize main reuse case for photos…
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@fontana …is 'semantically-linked/contextual illustration' not say photos^wgimping conclude copyleft ought to apply to former…
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@fontana …otherwise BY-SA =~ BY (for particular images anyway)
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@fontana closest to BY-SA case is http://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/2007-05-08-fdl-scope though FDL text lends more to that interpretation
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@webmink Why are unequal CLAs unreasonable? Phipps explains: http://webmink.com/2011/04/11/balancing-transparency-and-privacy/ /via @webmink
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@allisonrandal My impression is that @bkuhn is criticising "BSD for me, GPL for you", which clearly is outside both cultures, no?
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@mlinksva I can't even get a discussion going to where people get my method for doing so. feeling is that people get fed up besides.
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@mlinksva I may try again. Thanks. Would you be willing to have a back and forth by email to help me clarify my proposal?
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@zotz: book isn't BY-SA, just photo? BY-SA should cover illustration use (by which I mean "use") IMO. :-/
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@webmink your motivations matter to me if you desire to subvert the community, to remove my freedoms. in other words, to game the system.
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@zotz I fear you are doomed always to live in fear, then, as you have no right to know.
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@mlinksva here is a start: http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/2011/04/strongerbysaforphotos.html input appreciated by everyone.
drew Roberts likes this. -
@webmink I know I have no "right" to know, and I choose not to live in fear of it. However, I have a right to pay attention and be cautious.
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@webmink Also, the community has a right to try and protect itself from being gamed or destroyed from without or from within.
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@zotz My point remains that in a properly designed and active community you have no need to know anyone's motivations.
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@zotz Motivations are always subjective & so are unsuitable for judgement. Purity tests are the sign of crackpot zealots. Stick to code.
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@webmink and I do not argue with that point. The danger arises with bad actors and flaws in the design or meta problems. Vigilance needed.
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@webmink no up front purity tests contemplated.
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@zotz Indeed, any system defines in its rules the game that will play it. The only remedy is constant improvement. See http://wp.me/PH8ns-Zv
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@webmink exactly on the constant improvement. Foresight can help too. re: the Sentinels. seems reasonable in the code world. the arts world?
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@robmyers according to CC mailing lists, SA provisions do not kick in unless a derivative is made. so unequal power arises w photo & text
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@zotz: yes, although see FSF contrary position. Some use this as an excuse for NC, which is silly. The licence should reflect use principle.
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@fontana I did and found this: http://blogs.sun.com/dillon/entry/contributor_agreement Seems there were several versions over time.
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@mlinksva I think '“semantically linked” images with text' is the wrong trigger. I think an automatic copyright on the grouping is wanted
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@mlinksva can't if the photos you want are BYSA and some of the text you want is BYNCSA. Can you?
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@zotz: derivation. Alternative licences should be expressions of principle, not merely follow existing legal faultlines.
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@robmyers I would not argue with that. things have to be legally possible but no reason to limit ourselves to only one tool.
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@robmyers did you read my blog post on the matter? was it semi clear or mostly muddy? or???
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@robmyers Does the FSF really take the position that there is only derivation or mere aggregation? Nothing else in between? Or?
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@zotz: I was referring to their different position on illustration/text relation in a blog post they made
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@zotz I avoid using NC works, so the situation doesn't come up, but yes if illustration triggers SA then no using incompatibly licensed work
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@webmink I respectfully disagree. Understanding motivations can help you understand and predict actions. But yes, in the end, code speaks.
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@jospoortvliet In for the help
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@mlinksva from ml discussions, I don't think SA kicks in for such use of photos and I would like it to. "right to answer use of one's work "
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@robmyers I will have too look that up...
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@robmyers I like your "a right to answer use of one's work with one's own reciprocal speech" phrase.
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@zotz: I'm wary of basing calls for reciprocity on economic value, so that quote is hopefully a better direction in this case
drew Roberts likes this.
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