Conversation
Notices
-
@webmink, you're misrepresenting !FSF's position. FSF has published various suggestions for for-profit ©AAs to make them similar to FSF's.
about a year ago from web-
@bkuhn, anyone who thinks there's consensus on anything in FLOSS... well, the phrase "born yesterday" comes to mind.
-
@chromatic, weirdly,getting consensus on stuff like this is much easier, b/c devs often defer to lawyers w/out wondering about their motives
-
@chromatic The key will be in the classification scheme & geek FAQ rather than the actual licenses. Today both a poor.
-
@chromatic Additionally, I remain concerned that all Harmony variants allow one community member to have unequal rights.
Richard Fontana likes this. -
@webmink, I think that may be true as well. Seems there is no way to bind everyone to copyleft, but it needs much study to know for sure.
-
@bkuhn The only sure solution is distributed copyright. FSF needs to stop accumulating it & set a good example.
-
@bkuhn Everyone thinks they have a great excuse for doing it. I have repeatedly heard FSF's use of it used to justify other use though.
-
@bkuhn Until FSF condemns copyright assignment as outdated and unwarranted, it will never go away.
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@webmink, yes, many people are good at misrepresenting !FSF to their own ends. It's how #Shuttleworth's #Harmony campaign started, in fact.
-
@webmink,but ©AAs aren't completely unwarranted;E.g., !Conservancy has some for !BusyBox devs who want someone they trust enforcing for them
-
@bkuhn They are an exceptional mechanism that should ~ never be used and FSF should be telling people that.
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@bkuhn Instead the FSF keeps justifying copyright assignments as sauce for the goose that must on no account be used on the gander.
-
@bkuhn I am not misrepresenting; I understand their argument and agree in context. But it sets a dreadful example.
-
@bkuhn Do you claim it impossible for the GPL to be enforced on distributed copyright?
-
@webmink, only b/c ppl like #Shuttleworth prey on conflating things. Simply: !FSF ©AAs make binding community promises;for-profit ones don't
alek likes this. -
@webmink, quite the contrary! But, *someone* who will enforce !GPL needs to have a large amount of ©. Do you realize how rare that occurs?
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@bkuhn There is a greater risk of unenforceability, but mitigating that risk comes at the cost of community equality.
-
@bkuhn I do. So fix it through education, not by justifying a community toxin.
-
@webmink, you're speaking in complete hyperbole. It's not worth debating you when you make such overblown statements that are unjustified.
-
@bkuhn I seriously think it's time for the FSF to step forward here and stop diluting the argument with special pleading.
-
@bkuhn As I recall, that's what Canonical say to you...
-
@webmink,there's no reason to abandon a useful tool b/c others are trying to manipulate it. By that argument, we should give up copyleft too
-
@bkuhn There is no alternative to copyleft that I'm aware of.
-
@bkuhn BTW, hyperbole is the perfect rhetorical style for 140 character messages :-)
Richard Fontana likes this. -
@webmink, & there's no alternative to ©AA when a © holder wants an NPO to enforce on holder's behalf & not have to be involved in any way.
-
@webmink, I primarily object to use of term "toxic" to refer to ©AA. The analogy is way out of proportion to force me to have to disagree.
-
@bkuhn You say that as if it is the norm. I assert that's a corner case. Letting it control the stage is an error.
-
@webmink, I agree ©AAs are #problematic, but not toxic. If there were an easier way for an NPO to take over !GPL enforcement, I'd use it.
Jason Riedy likes this. -
@bkuhn Copyright assignment poisons community by giving one participant rights unavailable to all others. I believe "toxin" is appropriate.
-
@bkuhn Copyleft has changed the world & will continue to do so unless we let it be gamed by avoiders. Enforcement is secondary.
-
@bkuhn Not that I expect you to agree with that :-)
-
@bkuhn speaking of which... couldn't GPLv4 grant recipients enforcement power?
-
@webmink It is deeply ironic that for the sake of promoting enforcement we allow avoidance to be less condemned...
-
@webmink, are you talking to yourself? http://muppy.org/1e - I hope so, because it'll make me feel more sane! :D
-
@corenominal Yes, eventually it gets too much for me. The next step is sure to involve alcohol.
-
@webmink, that's the spirit, enjoy! :)
-
@bkuhn I worry far more about those subverting and suffocating software freedom through excessive control.
-
@corenominal You're right - it's time to leave conversing with @bkuhn & instead hit the Hendricks.
-
@webmink, taking software freedom away from actual users is still the most subverting thing; it's what we fight against.
-
@bkuhn Protecting software freedom takes more than guaranteeing source availability these days.
Richard Fontana likes this. -
@themadhatter That ("moral rights only") addresses nothing as it can still be broadly or exclusively licensed. Seen it in Germany.
-
@webmink how to "assign sufficient copyright to activate @bkuhn" while not "encouraging mass assignment" given identi.ca/notice/71206659 ?
-
@webmink Not moral rights - all rights.
-
@webmink For all creators of copyrighted works. Anyone wanting to use them would have to lease the works for time limited periods
-
@webmink That would be up to the creator. This would force the corporate sector to play fair. This was aimed at the CRIA actually.
-
@webmink Needless to say, the CRIA loves me.
-
@bkuhn grant them the right to make you enforce if they foot the bill? for consideration? I think the law gets it wrong with copyleft anyhow
-
@bkuhn could ©AAs be worded to give a joint and undivided interest over the code assigned to the party assigning and being assigned to?
-
@fontana Fairer, actually. That was as far as I could push it.
-
@fontana power inequalities, perhaps. (rich still have more power perhaps) danger of having a party make non-#Free version equal? or less?
-
@bkuhn why? GPL grants various permissions, why not permission for downstream to sue upstream over deviations from license?
-
@lxoliva seems to me that it would create a very real slippery slope.
-
@ruiseabra I meant deviation from license = copyright infringement
-
@bkuhn they defend the theory that, per .br law, GPL is a unilateral contract with a 3rd-party beneficiary that can demand the benefits
-
@bkuhn that sounds nonsensical to me, for it 3rd party could sue licensee, then it wouldn't be a unilateral contract, but...
-
@bkuhn ... they're lawyers and I'm not, and law doesn't have to make sense to non-lawyers, right? :-) never tried in court AFAIK
-
@bkuhn IIRC there was a case in France that got worldwide attention, that downstream recipient managed to demand compliance from mitm
-
@bkuhn it was this French case that got me thinking that the theory might hold water in Roman (as opposed to Common Law) jurisdictions
-
@bkuhn but what I'm suggesting is an explicit grant of permission in GPL to demand compliance from upstream. why can't it be unilateral?
-
@bkuhn @pedroparanagua, would you guys like to help us try this theory, described in the FGV report on the GPL prepared for ITI?
-
@pedroparanagua & @lxoliva, I'd love to work on this novel idea for .br !GPL enforcement. Send me email if you're interested & we'll discuss
-
@bkuhn are patent licenses rights that a © holder can grant to others via © license?
-
@lxoliva, !GPL *could* say:"If you get notice from a user that you're out of compliance,you lose distribution right",but that's #problematic
-
@bkuhn I've heard of copyright trolls with "enforcement rights" to movies; could I give large numbers of people said rights to my software?
-
Bradley M. Kuhn
Software Freedom Conservancy
, copyright
, busybox
, The GNU General Public License
, Ted Smith
@tedks, only way it works is if you form an org to be a !copyright enforcement agent. e.g., !Conservancy does this for !BusyBox re: !GPLv2.
-
@bkuhn err, that's not how I understand GPLv3 section 11. initial © holder fits “contributor” definition, thus grants patent license
Ricardo Dias Marques likes this.
-
All Identi.ca content and data are available under the