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Comic for childrens about Free Software available now: http://bit.ly/dGFInh (sources also online) !freesoftware !gnu !cc !linux !ubuntu !fsf
about a year ago from web- Jure Repinc (JLP), Christopher Allan Webber and Franco Iacomella and 5 others like this.
- Marko Dimjašević, Iris Fernández and Gábor Udvari and 2 others repeated this.
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@yaco i love this!
yukis yuli likes this. -
@yaco i love you so much!!!
yukis yuli likes this. -
Just translated the Free Software comic for kids, to Croatian. Planning to print it for school I work at. Comic: http://bit.ly/dGFInh #fs
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@arkblitz are you sure? when did you last try it? my 7-y-o daughter loves Trisquel, and she understands the issues
Osama Khalid likes this. -
@arkblitz but the panel explaining why some games won't work would definitely be a nice improvement to teach freedom as a value
Osama Khalid likes this. -
@arkblitz this sort of unprincipled pragmatism will just lead us back to where we started
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@rafu that's a clever fallacy. there's absolutely no reason to promote non-Free over Free just in case Free might fail
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@arkblitz teaching values from the beginning. it's not difficult, it's essential. without values, where would they end up?
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@arkblitz if you can read Portuguese, you can read the long version here http://fsfla.org/blogs/lxo/pub/dia-dos-pais
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@arkblitz it's not software, it's a work of opinion. you want to change my opinion?
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@arkblitz I just don't believe that the ethical requirements for software freedom apply equally to other kinds of works
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@arkblitz that said, I've been slowly growing my understanding of Free Culture in general, and turning into a © abolitionist
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@arkblitz Is it wrong I ♥ imaginary person depicted? Why not drink, tho… I'd brew my ale and distill my vodka from organic grains. Awesome!
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@arkblitz nice straw man ;-) I wish I could take more important issues as seriously as Free Software, but I'm too far from perfect
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@arkblitz it's a bit difficult to watch movies on it, unfortunately. but what does this have to do with the conversation? you lost me
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@arkblitz no, there is Free Software for various proprietary and patented formats, and © doesn't apply to viewing/listening/reading
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@arkblitz anyhow, I don't get how you can chastise me for not extending and pursuing the 4 essential software freedoms to free culture, ...
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@arkblitz while at the same time (apparently) chastising those who manage to take these *and* other issues seriously. double standards?
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@arkblitz Yeah, and he's absolutely awesome at that! But you were right in making him a non-drinker: 100% perfect character=non sympathetic.
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@arkblitz that's because the uses of these kinds of works are fundamentally different, so different freedoms are essential
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@arkblitz one obvious example of a fundamental difference is the need for source code to adapt and improve software
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@arkblitz once we've determined that there *are* fundamental differences, the trivial analogy needs an ethical justification
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@yaco Good job for promoting ubuntu. A good step is to show the children the truth and that is not with ubuntu. Only #freesoftware please!
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@arkblitz Aren't you conflating very different things here?
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@arkblitz for instance, what justifies the alleged essential freedom to modify and sell an arbitrary cultural work?
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@arkblitz there is such a justification for software, but not for entertainment music/books/videos AFAIK
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@arkblitz have you watched Free Software and the Matrix?
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@arkblitz It's a stupid bag, though. One we want to tear open, its contents spilled all over the floor.
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@arkblitz I don't dispute it would be better. I even wrote and spoke on that. I'm just not sure it's an essential freedom
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@arkblitz I'm just not convinced that denying this alleged freedom over some kinds of works is an ethical problem
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@arkblitz this is not sound logical reasoning: A is in X, and A and B are in Y, so B must be in X, too. see the problem?
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@arkblitz the ethical reasons why the 4 freedoms are essential for software have nothing to do with software being an intellectual work
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@arkblitz BTW, you won't find an answer to your questioning there, I'm just showing that the © maze won't stop me
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@arkblitz you're trying to show me they're the same, so using that argument is circular logic
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@arkblitz Welcome, o Internet Age man, to these old things they used to call "opinions". ^__^
Carlos Solís likes this. -
@arkblitz anyhow, the premise that led to the conclusion that the 4 freedoms are essential for software wasn't this broader scope
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@arkblitz so even if you consider X = Y, it still remains to be proven that the 4 freedoms are required for the larger set
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@arkblitz hey, lookie, the arrows actually move the cursor on Emacs! wow! nice! cheap shot, missed ;-) have a good one anyway
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@arkblitz M-x is alt+x, which executes a command. cua-mode will start cua mode, IE ctrl+s to save, ctrl+c to copy, etc.
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@arkblitz it's just emacs for dummies, if you want vi then it's M-x viper-mode ;P
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@arkblitz just @ me if you have any questions
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@arkblitz I fully endorse this. Fully.
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@arkblitz emacs is a full programming language, an irc client, a text editor, a task/calendar manager, an email client and many games
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@arkblitz basically people aren't exxagerating when they say it's an OS
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@arkblitz that's not all of them, those are just the ones in the base install
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@arkblitz it's big, but when you install it it replaces half the things on your system ;) and after that extensions are small
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@ruiseabra a) if community is healthy and one gets more benefit by participating than forking (eg Apache) a1) in some cases community…
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@ruiseabra … community control of domain/other ltd resource eg gondwanaland.com/mlog/2006/10/10/community-the-new-ip though that's content…
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@ruiseabra 2) consumer demand for source 3) regulatory demand for source 4) aggressive reverse engineering (can assume no legal barriers)…
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@ruiseabra … 5) conceivably contract (eg we'll see how contractual fallback of ODbL plays out; I realize this conflicts somewhat with…
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@ruiseabra … previous point's no legal barriers assumption 6) shame! ;-> 7) would be glad if you think of others…
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@ruiseabra in conclusion, copyleft is a fantastic and vital tool in current environment, but no reason to fetishize ©ensorship.
Christopher Allan Webber likes this. -
@ruiseabra the license
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@lxoliva !trisquel version of the comic is available. See http://bit.ly/gE7bJP
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@joseluis there is a !trisquel version of the comic. See: http://bit.ly/gE7bJP
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@sazius I think you mean "it gets a lot easier." Imagine a package which only made other programs harder.
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@wiccanhart1 if there is no copyright there is no copyright license.
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@mlinksva contract law is a lot worse than copyright.
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@mlinksva with the goal of software freedom, it makes no sense abolishing copyright without sth new to replace it. Easier to fix copyright.
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@yaco it's a nice branch but the truth is not unified... only becomes a fork. And maybe only one version is better: "GNU/Linux system" :-)
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@ruiseabra Of course it has, but that's not the point. Free version still being developed, most people use that. That's the point.
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@ruiseabra The age-old BSD vs GPL discussion. Apache is clearly a case where "BSD" works. GCC vs. Apple shows us a different case.
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@clacke you are diverging. Keeping on topic, Apache is not an example of non proprietary derivations, which was the point at hand.
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@clacke Without copyright IBM and Oracle and others would make even bigger abuses of Apache.
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@alisonchaiken But with !emacs you don't need other programmes! :)
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@ruiseabra What kinds of "bigger abuses" is the APL preventing? It's a permissive license.
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@ruiseabra The point at hand is "what would happen without copyright?". Permissive license are pretty close to that scenario.
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@clacke easy. Not even attribution.
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@ruiseabra Ah, finally I see your point. No, without copyright there is no way to guarantee software freedom for all recipients.
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@ruiseabra Interpreting your phrase "turn proprietary" different from your intention is not trolling. Misunderstanding now resolved. HAND.
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@clacke there is, contract law, but that is much worse than copyright. And it's easier to fix copyright than replacing it.
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@clacke ok sorry :)
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@ruiseabra Bad example? Objective-C was released under GPL, which it wouldn't have been without copyright, which was the point.
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@ruiseabra Their war is a consequence of the success of GPLv2 vs NeXT and the improvements to GCC licensing since GPLv3.
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@yaco Shouldn't uncle Lucho have brought aubergines and Ubuntu? Or is that an old release? ;-)
sazius (moved to status.saz.im) likes this. -
@alisonchaiken I think @lxoliva's point (which I RD'd) was that !emacs is so different that you forget how others work after learning it.
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@alisonchaiken or alternatively that !emacs is so awesome that after understanding it other programmes feel "hard to use" :) cc @lxoliva
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@ruiseabra I think the license & copyright have nothing 2 do w/each other, 2 totally separate issues.
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@eepica IRC
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@wiccanhart1 you think wrong as it's precisely a copyright license. ;)
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@mlinksva only if you count violation of law.
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@ruiseabra I count what exists in reality. Copyleft not complied with all the time. I'm for more enforcement, but it ain't magic.
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@ruiseabra One way of looking at this is maybe in ideal world, nobody using © martial arts to beat each other up, so © judo unnecessary
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@clacke yes that is my point, the free version of Apache (actually zillions of Apache projects) is dominant.
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@ruiseabra ideal world also doesn't have that contract thuggery either. But since we don't live in that ideal world, copyleft still useful
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@cwebber however, in real works greedy basterds
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@ruiseabra if you want required by law, my (3) regulatory demand for source the "sth new". sans © what now understood as software freedom…
drew Roberts likes this. -
@ruiseabra … can be required for safety, consumer protection, competition policy, procurement mandate, and other guises.
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@ruiseabra Yes, that's why I qualified with ideal world, said we don't live in it, etc
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@ruiseabra I believe in strategically using & sometimes not using copyleft to build a better world :)
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@bkuhn Noted (literally in ~/org/notes.org, tagged with etymology)!
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@mlinksva You should write about this on your blog. It'd be nice to be able to refer ppl to a URL for full explanation of why no © is better
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@lnxwalt280 added to the list of blog posts I have promised to make.
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@ruiseabra without copyright, there would be no proprietary sw. Just proper source sw and obfuscated or binary only sw. Am I missing smthg?
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@mlinksva @clacke @ruiseabra thing seldom discussed is the "enforcement apparatus" that "must" be put in place to enforce modern copyrights.
Clacke Moved to Parlementum likes this. -
@ruiseabra I guess that Oracle, MS, and many others would claim that without copyright they would not be able to make any money. ??
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@zotz yes, you're missing something. q isn't would there be proprietary software, but would users have software freedom—not 100% equivalent
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@zotz now I think on net no © would be a plus for software freedom, but nevertheless admit it isn't 100% cut and dry. Just 99%. ;-)
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@zotz hardly, as most money comes from software related services rather than software licensing.
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@mlinksva There is no incentive to keep source secret in a post copyright world - so no need for law compelling publication (corps excepted)
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@crosbie are you kidding me? sharing source isn't costless, and there are benefits to not sharing in some cases. even if treating source as…
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@crosbie …trade secret makes no sense rationally, organizations have secrecy and non-transparency in their DNA, sadly. Now I think lots of…
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@crosbie …source sharing would occur, silly to say "no incentive" to keep secret or that straightfwd incentives only thing stopping sharing
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@mlinksva no © and no sw patants etc, it would be a huge plus for sw freedom and I figure hiding source would not retain much traction.
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@mlinksva Not much room in 140. Without !copyright, GPL's obfuscation dis-incentive is redundant. If you want source offer money for it.
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@crosbie Ouch! That would mean we could at least kiss freedom to study goodbye. :/
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@fabsh So, if you coded a derivative and gave me a free binary demo I could send a SWAT team round to seize your source without payment?
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@yamanickill anyone, especially governments and big players could demand published sources as a precondition of purchase, or even tendering
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@yamanickill There is such a thing as privacy. And coders do need to be able to exchange their code for money.
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@zotz True, but there would be no reason for anyone to open up changes made to this code.
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@crosbie Not disagreeing with that. Disagreeing with the idea of there being no reason to hide code without copyright.
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@yamanickill still the pressure to get in mainline so as to avoid re-doing the same work over and over.
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@zotz Don't agree. Otherwise the pressure for companies to open up their code just now would do the exact same...
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@yamanickill I'm just saying that GPL's obligation not to obfuscate derivatives becomes unnecessary post-copyright.
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@crosbie And I'm just disagreeing. There would be no reason for anyone to republish it.
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@yamanickill Being paid for one's work is a good incentive to provide it to the purchaser - who would laugh at a binary. Remember - no ©.
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@crosbie That's not what I'm disagreeing with though. I'm saying there would be no incentive for someone who got their hands on the code...
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@crosbie ...to redistribute any changes they made. Which is a huge part of FLOSS.
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@yamanickill Hate to break it to you, but nor does the GPL. You can make all the changes you want - don't have to publish.
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@yamanickill Send me source to program+GPL. I'll modify it. Won't distribute my changes. Where does GPL say I have to publish my changes?
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@crosbie Ok ok, if you distribute binaries with the changes in it though...
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@yamanickill Without !copyright there is no-one who'll pay for a binary - they'll have the work (source) or nothing. Binaries become demos.
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@crosbie tbh, kinda a pointless argument anyways...
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@yamanickill Not really. Big difference between !copyright supporting free software advocate, and non-©supporting.
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@crosbie never gonna get to the point where copyright doesn't exist, that's why I think its pointless.
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@yamanickill We'll get there if enough people (especially !FSF folk) deprogram themselves of the idea they need !copyright.
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@crosbie what big difference? seems actions a FLOSS person would take now are same regardless of stance as © abolitionist or reformer.
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@crosbie I do not see why you think lack of © will cause more demand for source from customers. seems independent to me.
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@crosbie I don't know what that comment was about. Currently, GPL ensures everyone has the right to study the source. That's important.
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@laurelrusswurm Not if one accepts the premise that source code is necessary for the freedom to modify.
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@mlinksva It's a paradigm shift to go from !copyright/proprietary to FLOSS. It's another to see freedom doesn't require © (or other power).
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@crosbie There are many definitions of freedom. Copyleft is one and that *does* require copyright to work.
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@mlinksva Not saying more demand. Just lack of © won't incentivise closed source culture.
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@fabsh: I couldn't have said it better.
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@fabsh Ok, so you still think you must use !copyright to derogate from liberty in order to restore it, which is pretty crazy in my book.
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@crosbie I don't believe in the liberty of letting you do with my code as you please (including taking it proprietary).
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@crosbie I use copyleft to maintain control. I give you the Four Freedoms, that should be enough for anyone in my book.
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@crosbie The GPL is a very pragmatic license. I don't believe people are inherently good and we have to defend software freedom b/c of that.
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@fabsh What does 'taking it proprietary' mean? Reapplying !copyright to it? Which no longer exists...
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@mlinksva Looking forward to it! Seems there is a lot behind your 140 chars here that would be interesting to see.
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@crosbie Taking proprietary means you take my code which is free to study and change it & then close it up so nobody can study it anymore.
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@crosbie Without copyright (or a similar system) I can't prevent you from doing that. That's why I use the GPL and not a BSD license.
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@ruiseabra Oh, they would claim it alright. :-)
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@fabsh What? Like I put it in my desk drawer and lock it? What is your problem in that? Do you recognise privacy as a right?
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@crosbie No, like Apple taking good work by hundreds, making millions on it and not sharing back. IMO that isn't fair or morally right.
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@crosbie I recognise privacy as a right for your code, but not if you take other people's code and do that, no.
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@fabsh But without !copyright I can't 'take it proprietary', so you no longer need GPL.
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@crosbie Of course you can. You can compile it. I can't easily study OSX's source. And that's not because copyright is preventing me...
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@fabsh Ah, so you believe, even after you've given me a copy of your code, that you should control what I do with it?
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@fabsh That's actually a damn good example, since during OSX's development Apple invited people to help...then closed back up for retail.
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@fabsh Remember, I am talking post-!copyright, not about the mess we have with it today.
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@crosbie To a certain extend, yes. Basically, I want you to share alike. That seems true and just to me.
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@keithzg Sure. They aren't the only example, but it's my go-to one why I prefer copyleft over more liberal licenses.
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@crosbie You seem to ignore that even without any copyright you can make it technically very hard for people to get the source.
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@crosbie To me, having the source is as important as just having the program to run. Especially for educational purposes.
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@fabsh Definitely. Dangerous to leave the possibility of closing the source there; after all, "that is not dead which can eternal lie" ;)
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@keithzg Hahaha.... Good point!
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@fabsh I'd say even harder!
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@ruiseabra Yes. Because, to be honest, even today, copyright is stopping nobody to get the Windows or OSX source code.
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@fabsh I wouldn't say that anybody could get their source code. A select few authorised people or some very successful criminals.
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@ruiseabra Yeah, I'm not saying it is impossible, but really hard is bad enough to kill education value.
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@ruiseabra Or...ya know...anyone in russia ;-)
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@yamanickill it's not nice of you to generically suggest all russians are criminals. :(
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@ruiseabra No no, I wasn't meaning that. Microsoft gave the russian government the source code to Windows 7 last year.
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@yamanickill they allowed access to some source code, but for full source you have to go to Redmond.
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@mlinksva how many binaries can you sell? 1? say that customer offers to sell binaries at 1/2 of what you charge?
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@yamanickill which companies? Those building on GPL code bases?
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@zotz no, cause if there wasn't copyleft then the pressure on them would be less. I'm taking about closed companies.
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@clacke ...but you would be free to reverse engineer which would give you the freedom to modify if you wish
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@yamanickill in a no copyright world, closed co. sells a binary to 1 customer who then begins to compete selling binaries or gives them away
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@zotz: UNIX seemed to do OK with trade secret law. Abolishing copyright wouldn't ensure software is free...
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@robmyers But unix also has the benefit of copyright law along with it. Perhaps history of software protection before code could be ©?
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@laurelrusswurm, any single one of the 3 (or more?) remaining domains of `IP' restriction can be enough to kill !free #software projects.
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@laurelrusswurm, what would writing be like if `literary devices' could be patented? w/ terms half as long as `writing' itself had existed?
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@rozzin ...when I said copyright i mean all artificially imposed state sanctioned monopolies. Allowing patent of mathematical equations...
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@rozzin ...could well result in nothing left that can legally be taught as math in schools, the same as trademarking existing words...
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@rozzin For a table and chair set I bought at Ikea, neither Ikea or the manufacturer are under any obligation to give me extra chairs...
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@rozzin ... or fix the one broken 20 years after, but I can legally copy or repair it myself - or turn it into a playhouse for my child...
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@laurelrusswurm I think it does.
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@laurelrusswurm I know of local people who left a furniture manufacturer, set up for themselves and ended up in court for "copying" designs.
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@laurelrusswurm Yes it is !anticapitalist !capitalism as well. #thanksOrwellforconceptofdoublethink
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@laurelrusswurm, copyright, trademark, patent, and trade-secret—at least; and each can stifle even *by itself*, let alone in tag-team form.
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@rozzin but presumably they would all be declawed by removing all government protected monopolies, yes?
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@laurelrusswurm See "trade dress" and "industrial design right". Government-granted monopolies definitely apply to tangible objects.
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@laurelrusswurm Guess this is a discrepancy between interpreting "freedom" as positive or negative rights. I stand by "If one accepts ...".
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@clacke It strikes me a s crazy, but I can believe it. Still, I haven't heard of doors getting kicked in.
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@clacke The thing about freedom, is that we humans coexist. You are entitled to your freedom so long as it doesn't take freedom from me.
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@clacke And government monopoly does just that.
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@laurelrusswurm The use of the monopoly on violence is necessary to enforce positive rights. Is that what you meant?
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@laurelrusswurm No doors of hobbyists, sure. But tonnes of "counterfeit" goods are destroyed each year in the EU, the USA and other places.
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@laurelrusswurm Sorry, didn't read your two dents in context. Yes, my copyright, copyleft or not, restricts your freedom.
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@clacke violence?
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@clacke Counterfeit is not the same as copyright infringement. Counterfeit entails fraud.
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@laurelrusswurm counterfeit also entails knowledge of the "i before e except after c" rule #justsayin' ;P
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@thistleweb There are so many exceptions to that rule they do not teach it anymore.
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@thistleweb That is so !weird
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@satipera get off my lawn! /me waves his fist
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@stav it's 7.45am it's the best my mind could come up with as a bizarre comedy twist lol
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@thistleweb Well, it worked. Made me laugh, anyway. And I thought I'd pitch in with another "i before e rule" violation, too ;-)
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@stav sorry, I missed that until you pointed it out, as I said, it's early lol
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@thistleweb Well it's almost midnight here, and I'm not as young as I used to be, so I will bid "Good Night" to all of you
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@thistleweb the i before e rule is bogus most of the time or at least for >wierd< words i use when half asleep...
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@laurelrusswurm Get off @thistleweb 's lawn (see above in conversation) :)
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@satipera /me waves his fist in various non-specific directions in the hopes that one may be relevant ;P
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@thistleweb Covering all the bases aye?
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@dickturpin while it takes energy to wave a fist, might as well make it count ;P
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@thistleweb I generally fine getting Blind Pew to deliver the odd black spot or two works just fine for me. :-)
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@laurelrusswurm Not the morality of it?
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@clacke ...and since a state is an artificial construct, it necessarily lacks morals. Human beings have morality issues, states do not.
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@laurelrusswurm Yes. Is that monopoly morally/ethically acceptable?
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@clacke Morality is the set of rules by which we choose to live by. Since I am not the state imposing the monopoly, morality a non-issue.
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@laurelrusswurm Moral and ethics are not absent from political discussion, because they necessarily inform it.
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@clacke That's akin to anthropomorphizing the state. Not applicable.
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@laurelrusswurm If my "Panasonix" runs just fine and I recognize that it's not a Panasonic, against whom was any fraud perpetraded?
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@clacke In writing terms that is what is called "plagiarism" ... mis-attribution for nefarious purposes.
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@clacke Were I, as a writer, to pass off the writings of Oscar Wilde as my own, though they are in the public domain, it would be fraudulent
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@clacke ... and my government requested citizen input prior to its latest attempt to effect a #CanadianDMCA ; which has again failed (yay)
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@clacke This conversation has strayed far from original bent, and in fact you appear to be arguing the reverse of your original statement...
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@clacke While I usually don't mind arguing as sport, currently I have too many things ongoing, and the Identica conversation is too bulky...
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@clacke ...for my web browser to be able to refer back. If you wish to continue the discussion in a month, I'm gamem but for now I am done.
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@crosbie sure abolitionism is paradigm shift, agree. I asked how action of FLOSS advo would change if abolitionist or not. IMO ~none.
Rob Myers likes this. -
Free Software comic translation to Croatian can be found on the Sembrando Libertad project web page: http://ur1.ca/3yxqj #fs
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@mdim maybe Neucha is a good option. Would you like to contribute replacing ACME with that font? http://bit.ly/i12DTK
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@yaco @akfoerster @arkblitz I was looking for a comic-like font, that's similiar to the mentioned non-free font originally used in the comic
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@akfoerster, oh, sorry, now I see Nina font is comic-like. It's impractical to use by-sa licenced font. Why not cc0 or alike?
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@laurelrusswurm Learned many things from you and @crosbie last Friday. Still digesting. See you in a month. ;-)
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@akfoerster, I like it, but it's missing latin-extended chars. So I can't use it since Croatian language has these chars like čćžšđ etc.
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@akfoerster, no way! I've got into translating the comic, now I'm looking for a replacement font, and now I should draw by hand? :D
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@yaco, are you willing to work on Nina font ur1.ca/41gtn ? Nina Paley gave a permission to "re-release on the freest font license"
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