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Ubuntu is Shutting Down Off-Topic Mailing List http://lxnews.org/2011/04/21/ubuntu-shutting-down-off-topic-list/
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Not surprised. ♺ @lxnews: Ubuntu is Shutting Down Off-Topic Mailing List http://lxnews.org/2011/04/21/ubuntu-shutting-down-off-topic-list/
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@yamanickill I dunno. Seems symptomatic of a push for more control to me. What's wrong with just ignoring the bad stuff?
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@fabsh Ubuntu seems to trimming down a bit. Didn't they recently stop the free cd distribution program as well?
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@fabsh True, but tbh, do you know anyone that uses it?
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@vredfreak Yeah, but that really was a no-brainer to conserve money.
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@yamanickill Why would I? I'm not in the Ubuntu community anymore...
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@fabsh Yeah ok true. My point is that whenever I've been on it, its just been a bunch of 12 year old idiots flaming each other over nothing.
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@yamanickill That's identica isn't it? ;-)
Alistair McKinlay likes this. -
@yamanickill I believe you are defining "a mailing list" there. Or even the whole Internet, really. ;)
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@dickturpin Nah, thats a bunch of 20+s flaming each other over nothing ;-)
László Torma likes this. -
@fabsh Ok, let me put it this way. I don't care about that mailing list...
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@fabsh Now then, let's not generalise here. It's only 96%. :P
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@yamanickill Oh yeah, sorry, my mistake.
Alistair McKinlay likes this. -
@lxnews: 1) the Code of Conduct is not a Canonical product, 2) the vast majority of the Ubuntu Community Council are not Canonical employees
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@yamanickill Me neither. I am trying to point out what seems a general theme within Ubuntu/Canonical these days...
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@dholbach Good point. But don't you think this was done mostly in the interest of Canonical?
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@dholbach Edited the article to link to your dent and clarify some stuff.
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@popey I think you yourself are one of the people who default on doing things in their interest even if you don't work for them.
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@syntax 98% probably. ;)
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@fabsh No. Most community members will tell you that they value the people and the atmosphere most. sounder was no representative of that.
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@fabsh True. I'm slowly moving away from anything to do with ubuntu. Crunchbang on the desktop, and about to try out jolicloud on netbook
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@fabsh I do things in the interest of Ubuntu, not Canonical. People outside the project have a fuzzy view of the line between though.
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@fabsh I'm not mad. My "No." was merely to answer your direct question.
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@yamanickill Just feels increasingly like an iron grip to me.
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@yamanickill I idiot should've known when I read SABDFL. A "benevolent dictator" just doesn't exist. Never has, never will be.
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@popey I think that is because you think the interests of Canonical often *are* the interests of Ubuntu. (IMO)
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@fabsh Yeah, I agree.
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@yamanickill To be honest, it shows a !disturbing political naivite on Shuttleworth's part. I never found this title funny in F/OSS anyway.
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@fabsh It reflects badly on the project, isn't representative, useful or productive. Only ~20 people used it for personal gripes. Pointless.
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@fabsh You're wrong.
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@popey How does a non-moderated, off-topic mailing list reflect badly on the project? Is Ubuntu so vain that it can't have dark corners?
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@popey Maybe you don't see it yourself? Anyway, you align with company policy nearly every time an issue comes up.
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@popey I could rephrase it: IMO, the Community Council isn't independent enough from Canonical no matter employment of memebers.
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@yamanickill I thought CrunchBang and Jolicloud are (or were) both based on Ubuntu?
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@davidmarsden Crunchbang is based on debian. Jolicloud is only using the ubuntu repos. It has diverged hugely from ubuntu.
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@davidmarsden Crunchbang is now Debian based.
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@davidmarsden Crunchbang is Debian-based, btw. And just because a distro is based on Ubuntu doesn't mean it can't be better than it.
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@davidmarsden crunchbang used to be, but switched to debian after 9.04, jolicloud still are, no idea which one, they don't say
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@yamanickill Hasn't everyone? ;)
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@fabsh Again. The Code of Conduct is not 'company policy'. It's an Ubuntu document. What 'company policy' do I align with?
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@syntax Exactly. See Linux Mint for a superlative example.
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@davidmarsden keep up at the back.
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@yamanickill Nothing to do with Ubuntu then ;-)
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@popey So, who do you think benefits most from the CoC? I know you'll say the community. I think it's Canonical.
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@davidmarsden They could switch to debian repos easily tbh. A lot of their stuff is their own stuff tbh anyway.
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@popey Just listen to our podcasts. Whenever Canonical does something controversial, I err on the side of "they fucked up"....
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@fabsh Or vice versa in some cases.
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@fabsh How would you fix that?
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@popey ....you tend to say "what's the big deal, Mark is right".
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@fabsh You don't seem to want to hear my point of view. I'll leave it there.
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@rpcutts I said 'are (or were)'. Which seems to be correct. Go and stand in the corner.
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@popey To be honest, I have no idea. That's why I left. Ubuntu is a community full of people worshipping their leadership. Not for me.
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@popey I never said that. Bring it on. I hardly prevented you from speaking your mind.
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@silner That's because Ubuntu puts getting mainstream before everything else. I don't agree with that philosphy either. I think it's doomed.
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@fabsh Indeed. @davidmarsden starts each #tinap with 20 mins of evangelism, prayers, chanting and adoration of Canonical. Which is tedious.
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@fabsh Nope. I'm just getting increasingly pissed off with you personally having a pop at me publicly online. Dreading oggcamp, Thank you.
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@andyc ROFL :D
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@andyc bow down to the #Shuttlecock. You know you love it!
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@popey WTF? I didn't even mention you once. You jumped into this discussion. This wasn't about *you* at all.
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@popey I enjoy discussing these things with you very much, especially because you have a different opinion. Why do you think it's personal?
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@fabsh I don't enjoy it at all. Your tone is confrontational, accusatory and implies I'm lying.
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@popey Wow, internet tone?
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@fabsh I merely joined to correct you about it being Canonical driven. It was not,I drove it. Thats clear from the logs. You dont believe me
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@popey I never meant to imply you are lying. Maybe my grasp of English isn't as good as I thought.
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@popey I'm sorry, but I'm not governed by the CoC and I'm maybe used to a different discussion culture than you...
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@popey Which brings me back to my original point that I think non-Canonical members are acting in their interest independently.
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@lxnews The way the announcement is phrased, it sounds like management announcing shutting off Facebook access on company network.
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@fabsh The main disadvantage I can see is people like me are now reporting more Fedora Bugs and less Ubuntu bugs. That has to matter
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@erez Now that you say that...... it is.
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@fontana Yes, Meritocracy has downsides. Just imagine a state governed by it. :/
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@fontana But is it a "product" of Canonical? ;)
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@diablomarcus People actually said that about Hitler too, once. Or about just any other dictator there ever was. Think about it.
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@diablomarcus The point is not what happens when they are good, but what happens when they turn on the people.
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@diablomarcus Efficient in doing evil. And a dictator will inherently become evil because power corrupts.
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@diablomarcus Luckily we don't hold any power.
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@fontana They probably had a CA when they drafted it... ;)
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@fabsh agreed about power. And you hold the power of our minds! As a mindless follower of the Nuclear Chicken, I must follow.
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@fabsh I know I certainly have! But hey, good, evil - they're both fine choices. Do whatever floats your boat, I say.
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@fontana Nope, I agree. Also, it tends to favour coding merit when there are many more valuable ways of contributing.
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@diablomarcus LOL. I wish I was making millions from it. Sadly, Step Profit has failed so far... ;)
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@fontana I think that's Guido, Larry Wall was not referred to as a BD/BDFL. And IIRC Shuttleworth added the SA part
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@fontana I would really doubt it but don't know. Lots are called that e.g. Linus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_Dictator_For_Life
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@fontana Yeah, I shied away from contributing when I learned Canonical owns your content (well, back then)...
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@fabsh I definitely see why you are arguing against Marx's 'worker paid according to h(is)(er) work' ;)
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@fontana To be honest, any dictator is politically #problematic. Elected dictators have been evil since Caesar.
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Lunchtime, just about finished one class' reports done, one to go
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@diablomarcus I don't argue against that. I just think it's impossible as Marx dreamed it up.
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@kevie enjoy your lunch!
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@fabsh You mean Augustus. Caesar didn't get that far.
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@fontana I think that Self Appointed Patron Saint of Free and Open Source Software was a bit too unweildy
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@fabsh orthodox marxism is doomed. Agreed.
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@joshix Well, they made him dictator.
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@popey Trolls and other abbrasives are a big part of why people get burned out on open source projects & communities. Emotional toll ftl.
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@fontana Would be very fitting. Was he holding a rifle while he said it, too? :D
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@fabsh that just means "one who dictate", right of veto and so forth. Not the all-powerful being tha Augustus was
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@fontana perhaps the term, but definitely not the concept. Nevertheless: it is indeed #disturbing
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@erez Caesar was bad enough. Very much a "dictator" in the modern sense of the world. He killed the republic, after all.
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@fabsh but what about the dictatorship of the Majority?
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@joshix Ha! We all agreed. That is scary. Let's not do that again, it disturbs the balance of power on identica! :D
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@x1101 Well, that at least is not a formal government structure. Some would say it's a symptom of democracy.
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@x1101 But then the same people usually claim that not enough people are voting so WTF!?
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@fabsh that was (mostly) a tounge in checck refrence to the Randian school of thought
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@fabsh Would love to offer witty rejoinder, but I collapsed into singularity at the moment that occurred.
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@fontana Apart from Guido and Linus, all the other BD seem to be "dictating" a small, banana-republic-island of a project.
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@joshix LOL! :D
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@erez And Larry Wall, which I dispute his BD status. I've never heard him being referred to as such and as for the article [citation needed]
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@erez No, that "BD" stands for "Bad Designer"
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@joshix I'll give that one the slip, being a perl guy and all that ;)
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@erez You must be the first perl guy I've run across with an interest in Plan 9. I tend to view them as opposite ends of the continuum.
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@joshix yes, I'm familiar with the Pike quote. I think there are a lot of common ideas in both, despite the ideological differences
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@erez Pike quote?
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@erez Oh, wait, I know what quote you mean. Wasn't thinking of that.
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@joshix "[The one tool for one job] days are dead and gone and the eulogy was delivered by Perl"
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@fabsh did the German just Godwin this conversation? Mind blown.
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@copiesofcopies As I explained often, Godwin's law is bullshit. The only was to learn from Nazi Germany is to talk about it without taboos.
Bruce Cowan likes this. -
@copiesofcopies Saying that you immediately loose an argument just because you talked about Hitler is supremly silly.
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@copiesofcopies As a historian, Godwin's Law insults me.
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@copiesofcopies Agreed, but Godwin's law is more about poorly justified comparisons to Hitler than a taboo on the topic of Nazis, right?
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@fabsh Yeah, but isn't the point of Godwin's Law to try not to devalue the Holocaust in the collective conscious? A worthy aim surely?
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@fabsh Plus that guy has scary glasses. Just look: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Mike_Godwin_at_Wikimedia_2010.jpg
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@fontana: you mean "© 2010 Canonical Ltd. Ubuntu and Canonical are registered trademarks of Canonical Ltd."? that's on every ubuntu.com page
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@b1ackcr0w How is talking about how bad Hilter was devaluing the memory of the Holocaust?
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@fontana What is unclear about the footer of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/392838 is fixed.
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@reality You are right. I need a "Godwin can go fuck himself" badge. :D
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@fabsh Wouldn't go that far. His point wasn't that we shouldn't talk about it, was just an observation that a lot of arguments boil down to
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@fabsh That isn't what Godwin's about, rather the tendency of arguments to escalate towards the point where one side calls the other a Nazi
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@erez I never called anyone else on the Internet a nazi and I get quoted Godwin about once a week.
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@fabsh It's a misreading of it. I joke about it, but most people just misread it. There's lots of similar things like it
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@fabsh for instance, the Chekov saying "if a gun fires at the 3rd act, it should make an appearance o n the 1st", everyone misquote that one
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@fontana: that's fixed: http://is.gd/A7jv2h (note there's a bug in some wiki themes where the footer does not show up: http://is.gd/B3kiTD)
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@fontana it has nothing to do with each other
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@fontana The same context that brought forth Hogan's Heroes as the primary source of education on Nazi Germany? ;)
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@fabsh, the fact that #Godwin's law came up again shows that we need to release that first episode of #rantofabkuhn where we discuss it. :)
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@bkuhn I know, I know. I've got it on the todo for the next two weeks. I've been shite, I feel ashamed about it... :/
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@fabsh I actually want to read that. :o
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@copiesofcopies, #Godwin's law connotation is out-of-proportion comparison. cf #OfficeSpace: "Nazis had pieces of flare they made Jews wear"
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@bkuhn I know that, I was just being gentle by phrasing it as a question.
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@dholbach BTW, I think it's terrific to see you more active on identica, even if I dragged you in here under bad circumstances. ;)
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@bkuhn I suggest the niwdoG law: As an online discussion grows longer the probability of someone mentioning Godwin's law approaches 1
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@copiesofcopies, I know you know. I had "Agreed: " at start of last dent but removed to meet 140. NB: it's merely connotative,not denotative
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@erez, I agree,but IMO it would be more properly called the "meta-Godwin's-law law". BTW We just also invoked meta-meta-Godwin's-law-law law
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@copiesofcopies It makes it sound like Hitler is somehow unique as a mass-murdering dictator, which is dangerous and the main problem.
Clacke Moved to Unlimited likes this. -
@erez, although, on second thought, the odds of the meta-meta level on #Godwins_Law occurring is probably closer to a .10 probability.
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@fabsh seems to me the *comparison* is what does that, not the "law" that the comparison is by definition invalid.
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@copiesofcopies,that's still just #GodwinsLaw connotation, law itself states:"odds someone analogizes to Nazis approaches 1 asymptotically"
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@fabsh: Because equating average arseholes like Obama or Bush or suchlike, may be interprested as Hitler was only as bad as those people.
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@bkuhn You know, after one million people, it's so much suffering.... Keeping score seems morbid to me. :/
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@copiesofcopies Well, see I disagree. He gives no reason for the comparison being invalid. Compare that to the Historikerstreit for example.
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@fabsh Meritocracy is a myth, esp. when merit is measured by a small group of people with similar mindsets and contribution histories.
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♻ @eximious Meritocracy is a myth, esp. when merit is measured by a small group of people with similar mindsets & contribution histories.
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@bkuhn That is very true.
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@eximious Probably true.
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@fontana Want me to ask him?
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@fontana I see nothing! I know nothing!
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@jargon You don't get the point: He is now, that doesn't mean it's a good government/governance model.
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@fontana That's not what I meant. ;)
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@joshix Now I'm curious, what were you thinking of?
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@fontana, the fact that you made the #Dead_Kennedys connection with my #Pol_Pot mention indeed shows you know me too well for my own good.
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@fontana What does it have for Kill The Poor?
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@fontana, it should say: For Holidays in Cambodia, "it's tough, kid, but it's life. Just don't forget to pack your wife!" #Dead_Kennedys
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@erez Was thinking of just personal pref.But my 'continuum' is flawed prima facie b/c how do I compare a language to an OS in the 1st place?
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@joshix true, but an OS share philosophies with a languauge (C/Unix) and languauge accumulate libraries to become like an OS in scope
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@erez No doubting the scope part at least. Also LOC.
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@joshix also, both p9 and perl came out of Unix, and attempt to solve some inherent problems in it, p9 in the kernel ond perl in userspace
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wiki.ubuntu.com relicensed !CC BY-SA http://is.gd/A7jv2h last week; ht @dholbach
Osama Khalid likes this. -
@mlinksva what process did they choose to relicense legally?
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@osamak I only know description from http://is.gd/A7jv2h -- outreach in number of venues, many +1, little opposition
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@fontana Which issues are #disturbing?
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@erez I thought it was the other way around. Is that the misconception you are talking about?
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@clacke Sorry, don't know. Don't remember hearing anything about it.
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@diablomarcus I have said it before and I'll say it again: The inefficiency of democracy is one of its *features*.
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@clacke Not from me.
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@clacke oh no! A necromancer!
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@clacke right. It's a simple guideline, don't pull stuff out of midair.
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@erez Sounds fair. The backward reading would be "don't leave a single loose end", which always sounded wrong to me.
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@clacke right. Or "always foreshadow". You can wave a gun in act 1, but you don't have to shoot it.
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