Conversation
Notices
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@fontana, not at all. w/ !FaiF you can make money, but you make *more* w/ proprietary sw. Why else then do they do the latter & not former?
about a year ago from web-
I can tell it is evening in Europe as another Californian afternoon of bitching kicks off on identi.ca. Shocked. ;-)
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@jonobacon Adding your voice to the chorus? ;)
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@jonobacon Love it how everything people don't agree with is immediately "bitching". We can't all be happy-go-lucky all the time. ;)
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@gabe more of an observation. :-)
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@fabsh possibly, but it seems like 90% of your dents are complaining about other people's viewpoints or choices. Sounds like bitching to me.
John Sullivan likes this. -
@jonobacon Someone needs to be there to balance out all the love and awesomeness flowing in from California. ;)
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@jonobacon That's why the internet was invented ;-) for moaning...
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@jonobacon People say that a lot. I wonder if the noise just hides it on Twitter. I personally found the inane drivel on there nauseating...
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@yamanickill DUDE, YOU ARE SO WRONG ABOUT THAT, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU??? YOU SUCK. SO DOES YOUR FACE. (joke)
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@jonobacon Must be a cultural difference. I'm a fan of "say it as you see it". That's what I loved about LugRadio back in the day, actually.
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@fabsh I see it a lot. I love identi.ca, and want it to succeed, but at times it feels like a narrow-minded old-boys-club.
Craig Maloney likes this. -
@fabsh nothing wrong with "say it as you see it", but droning on at people who know your viewpoint is not particularly useful or productive.
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@jonobacon Identica is an awesome community and it has succeeded already in that. Twitter is just the new AOL. Success is highly subjective.
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@jonobacon You think I'm droning on? I was just talking to @jancborchardt. You made your point. Feel free to carry on. :)
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@fabsh I think Aq summed it up in http://is.gd/JtjnY8 - I don't consider this success.
Craig Maloney likes this. -
@fabsh I think you are at times you are a broken record in complaining about other people's and project's definition of software freedom.
Rob Myers likes this. -
@jonobacon Yeah, I remember that. I guess a community that encourages free speech isn't for everyone. But luckily, we have choice.
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@jonobacon Fair enough, you aren't the only person who thinks that. But I consider it important to talk about problems other people ignore.
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@fabsh don't twist my words, I am all for free speech - I just get disappointed by the trolling that happens on here at times.
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@jancborchardt agreed. :-)
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@fabsh I agree that discussing problems is good, but I rarely see solutions discussed here, just the the re-definition of the problems. ;-)
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@jonobacon How do you define trolling? That word is so meaningless, it's used as a smear more often then not.
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@jonobacon That's because there is no easy solution most of the time. That doesn't make the discussion invalid.
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@jonobacon The whole field of Ethics wouldn't exist if we discussed everything based on immediate solutions.
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@fabsh I define trolling as looped directed criticism without the intention of resolving the issue at hand in a constructive way.
Craig Maloney likes this. -
@fabsh just because a solution doesn't currently exist, doesn't mean we should not strive to find it.
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@jonobacon I told you how to resolve it: Stop worrying about Adobe and get cracking on helping the GIMP guys out.
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@fabsh that is not a solution, that is an idea - how can we resource it? what are the goals? what would the roadmap be? how could you help?
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@jonobacon How is that an argument against pointing out the problem in the first place?
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@fabsh You are to FLOSS discussions what a jackhammer is to a tap on the shoulder
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@jonobacon What? Now you want me to develop a complete bizdev plan for Gimp otherwise I can't talk about the issue? SERIOUSLY?
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@fabsh to be clear: today's Adobe discussion is what I see as just one example in a patchwork that forms the problem I see.
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@silner agreed, start with an idea, but lets have a discussion to flesh out the idea, not just argue about the problem. I see little of that
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@snapl I do not shoot with my hand, I shoot with my mind. I do not kill with my gun, I kill with my heart.
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@fabsh my point is that all I ever see is complaints from you without practical suggestions and discussion of improvement.
Rob Myers likes this. -
@jonobacon I am not whining. I'm telling you what I think is wrong and what we need to do to fix it.
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@fabsh yep, so between whining and a full bizdev plan is a practical discussion and collaboration around improvement, why not focus on that?
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@jonobacon And I see it as just another uphill battle against people innundating the world with corporate PR nonsense.
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@fabsh how would PR people stop putting together a collaborative community plan to improve the current status quo?
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@jonobacon Really? So I guess you've never heard me advocating GIMP, Inkscape, MyPaint and Blender? Or seen me help people on here using it?
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@jonobacon I did. That was before you came along and said I needed to actually do stuff instead of discuss the issue.
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@jonobacon You actively encouraged people to use (IMO inferior) proprietary software instead of focusing on helping F/OSS.
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@fabsh and that is a great contribution, but frankly, most of the content I see from you on here is unfocused re-definition of problems.
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@fabsh maybe I missed it, but I have not seen a plan to resolve the issue in hand. apologies if I did miss it.
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@sleepynate Adobe doesn't care about Linux. If people can't see that, they are morons.
Andy C likes this. -
@jonobacon I agree Photoshop poses a special hurdle for some us ers who want to move, because PS users tend to use ALL its features
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@fabsh how have I encouraged people to use proprietary software? I might say I use it at times, but how have I encouraged others to?
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@jonobacon Maybe you are just focusing on dents that involve your name? I spend a lot more time talking about other things...
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@fabsh I don't doubt it, and I am sure I mainly see dents that involve my name, which is why I said it was trolling. ;-)
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@fabsh and neither Skype being now own by M$...
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@jonobacon You can't discount the leading by example issue tho. It has some effect
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@jonobacon I think it's polite to direct a dent to you when I'm talking about you. Anything else would feel cowardly...
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@fabsh that is not me encouraging people to use it, that is clarifying a common piece of corporate speak.
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@jonobacon The plan is: Tell people that GIMP is most likely sufficient for what they need and encourage them to try and participate.
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@fabsh .. topics :)
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@fabsh now that sounds like a decent plan - how do you think it could be best achieved?
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@silner You mean like nuclear power, Osama Bin Laden, the Grundgesetz, NHL, motorbikes, french wine etc? ;)
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@jonobacon I'm giving my best, using every outlet possible to spread the word. Also, !fedoradesign proves it with actual work.
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@sleepynate Ouch! Low blow. ;)
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@fabsh what could be awesome is to build a GIMP Advocacy Group - maybe based on something like Ubuntu LoCo Teams - federated groups.
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@jonobacon OK, I would have commented differently, but I guess we have to just disagree on that one.
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@fabsh the group could then work together on outreach resources (e.g. posters, flyers) and organize events to raise awareness of the gimp.
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@jonobacon We should talk to the Gimp people. They must now what they need most. I'm guessing devs. I wish I could code, I'd be in there now
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@jonobacon I try to avoid criticizing people for expressing opinions, even repetitively. Calling it "bitching" is derogatory.
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@gabe opinions are opinions, complaining without wishing to resolve the complaint is bitching in my book. :-)
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@fabsh agreed, but advocates who raise awareness of the gimp (focused on users) could then expose it to more devs which would be a win
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@fabsh start getting into coding more ;-) night
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@alisonchaiken How exactly is GIMP more bloated than PS (~46MB (on my machine) vs. ~2 GB (according to Adobe's requirements page))?
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@alisonchaiken I think by 'bloated' you mean 'messy code'. Nobody could call GIMP a resource hog by any stretch of the term.
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@syntax Or does @alisonchaiken mean feature bloat? #gimp and #photoshop are both daunting programs for the casual user to approach.
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@fabsh interesting timing... over the last couple of weeks our users spontaneous came up with a request for an Inkscape Advocacy group
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@joncruz very cool! kinda think Create has a branding problem in that regard: should be "The Community" & do advocacy/education + the coding
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@n8 People use what they get used to. teach kids GIMP, reach out to community college art/design professors, build templates for newsletters
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@n8 Significant gains in the number of GIMP/Inkscape users probably won't come from folks who already use floss.
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@eximious agree abt reaching out to the community (& NOT just by inviting it to our events). Yet a working GIMP on Win/OSX = better for most
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Alison Chaiken
Linux Outlaws Podcast
, Psychedelic Squid (is now at Fragdev)
, pseudomorph
, David Will
@psquid @syntax @pseudomorph #gimp bloat = 2 many features, 2 hard to do simple tasks. Not familiar w/ PS: imagemagick & inkscape rock. !lo
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@alisonchaiken Fair enough. The context of the notice you were replying to gave me the mistaken impression that you were calling it ..
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@alisonchaiken .. bloated compared to PS.
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@jonobacon u should be ashamed of urself as a "community manager". Painting every identical user with one brush. Is shameful & trollish
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@jonobacon I think we need to be pragmatic about the PS issue, what features does it have that gimp doesn't, how can we add this features?
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@jonobacon right now tge gimp project could do with some love, its what we have, our bird in hand. Guess u'll call my dent bitching. Oh well
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@joncruz Sounds like a good idea to me! :)
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@brainspoil In what time? I think I do a lot of valuable things for the F/OSS community. Not everyone can be a dev.
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@alisonchaiken Ahahahaha! Yeah.... and Creative Suite isn't bloated??? Come on....
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@alisonchaiken Any advanced program will have lots of code which is hard to learn to develop on. With CS you can't even do that if you need.
sazius (moved to status.saz.im) likes this. -
@eximious that was my point about GTK. Are you disagreeing?
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@n8 Not disagreeing, just adding specifics.
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@eximious righto. real shame the distros and other big$ FLOSS companies don't grasp it.
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@fabsh What the heck is Creative Suite? Let GIMP users pay devs if they want. GIMP is too hard to use. I use ImageMagick,Inkscape, !Apple.
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@n8 Any project that thinks they *might* want this should hire me to make it happen. :)
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@jonobacon, "live & let live" only works for things that don't harm anyone;Can't extend this to, say, oil spills or other bad corporate acts
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@jonobacon, my life's work has been to help end for-profit corporate & proprietary control of software. I both complain & work on solution.
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@bkuhn "harm people" is relative too, not go far enough to give people extra, is not the same as taking away something people knew they had
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@bkuhn if people know the cost and still do it, are they being harmed? you may say so, they take the decision that they're not
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@thistleweb, I agree in abstract & also realize that most people don't see the harm proprietary software causes. But that's separate issue
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@bkuhn do we really need to end for-profit, even if/when a for-profit is freedom-respecting?
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@bkuhn do we really need to end for-profit, even if/when a for-profit is freedom-respecting? http://sngpl.ma/t4Br7
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@bkuhn Google & Facebook harvest personal info, in return they give free (use) sites and services, people see the trade off as worth it
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@thistleweb, you're talking so abstractly that ∄ logical way to respond. ∄ a universal rule on the point you raise (except for libertarians)
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@bkuhn I could argue that religion is tantamount to child abuse, but those who indoctrinate their kids don't agree, I see harm, they don't
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@thistleweb,I'm not a Libertarian, so I don't agree that just b/c some believe a given contract is "worth it to them" makes it ok by default
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@bkuhn they make the choice, it's like someone saying it's "value for money", that's a personal call, everyone is different
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@singpolyma, no, we need for-profit endeavors in software. However, the profit motive alone shouldn't dominate software & its production.
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@thistleweb, I long ago learned it was a waste of time to argue with someone with a Libertarian philosophy. You appear to have one IIUC.
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@bkuhn if someone is happy with what they get for the price they pay, why bleat on about the harm it's doing them? they don't agree or care
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@bkuhn so you'd rather deny people something they're quite happy with because it doesn't meet your standards?
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@bkuhn or am I missing something?
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@bkuhn Note that not all libertarians agree with that either. Mixed lot.
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@bkuhn never knew I was a Libertarian, dunno what that is, maybe I should check it out
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@bkuhn that's the value of the capitalist system, people choose with their custom, if a company steps over the line, they lose customers
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@thistleweb, I don't know if you're Libertarian or not, but argument you're making is classic Libertarian. I've no spare time to argue it.
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@bkuhn keep fighting the deaf fight
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@bkuhn Agreed! I find the profit = good rationale !disturbing Profit may be desirable but it's not a good imperative on its own.
Rob Myers likes this. -
♺ @eximious: @bkuhn Agreed! I find the profit = good rationale !disturbing Profit may be desirable but it's not a good imperative on its own
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@thistleweb,I haven't worked on deaf issues since back when I studied ASL in graduate school. I work on software freedom issues mostly now.
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@bkuhn I meant carry on the hardline fight, it mostly falls on deaf ears, pragmatism will advance the cause faster but good luck with it ;P
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@thistleweb, I'm sorry you find my work worthless. If you find proprietary software to be good for society, we'll never agree. I don't mind.
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@bkuhn I love hardliners putting words in people's mouths to advance their argument, don't you?
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@thistleweb Do they GOOG and FB fully disclose what information they use and who they make it available to? Lotsa people......
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@thistleweb Pragmatism will advance its own cause, always. But that's it.
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@thistleweb ...use their services in good faith, rarely read the fine print. These companies should not be allowed to abuse such trust
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@nj3ma thats true, but people do choose to use them, should they not be allowed to?
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@pete yeah I prefer stuff that works, even if it's "unpure" than something that doesn't work
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@thistleweb You must have a different definition of "works" than I do.
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@thistleweb consumer advocacy: try to protect people who don’t think they need protecting. Else we all lose with them
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@thistleweb consumer advocacy: try to protect people who don't think they need protecting. Else we all lose with the… http://sngpl.ma/t4Br8
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@jonobacon Must be who you choose to follow
Or do you follow everyone? -
@jonobacon Must be who you choose to follow ;) Or do you follow everyone? http://sngpl.ma/t4Br9
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@jonobacon I keep hearing you repeat that point, but in my experience without a full definition of a problem, any solution will be partial.
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@bkuhn eliminating the influence of the profit motive does require eliminating capitalism, which I support finding an b…
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@singpolyma indeed, religious people try to "save me" all the time, they get told to fuck off too
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@marxistvegan, IMO we need to eliminate capitalism to mitigate the effects of profit domination of software. Healthy NGO involvement'll do.
tuss likes this. -
@bkuhn @marxistvegan I disagree. I don't profit and freedom are mutually exclusive.
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@bkuhn nice! expand on what NGO's could do, I ask cause at times I feel many still support the profit motive cause they…
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@pete,Agreed: not mutually exclusive, but it's !problematic to put profit above software freedom, as for-profits are legal required to do.
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@bkuhn agreed. i think (as i think you may have said on faif) that publicly held companies are !problematic
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@marxistvegan I disagree. Profit isn't exploitation, nor is it controlled by "capitalists" (whoever they are). Exploitation is exploitation.
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@fabsh true, you sure keep busy, you workaholic :) thanks for doing what you do man. we all are important cogs in the bigger scheme F/OSS
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@pete The reason I differentiate surplus and profit is because a profit is the root motivation of capitalism. Capitalis…
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@fontana @bkuhn's ideas about public companies may ultimately derive from a disfavored reading of Dodge v. Ford: http://ur1.ca/47cto
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@fontana put another way: companies cite DvF ideas as "law" excusing antisocial behavior, and the public has bought it without fact-checking
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@fontana, duty that publicly traded for profit companies must put profit of shareholders as first goal is well documented.
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@marxistvegan I do not understand your definitions of profit and capitalism. What exactly is the difference betwen surplus and profit?
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@copiesofcopies, trolling aside, most for-profits clearly put profit ahead of everything else, AFAICT. Why would they do proprietary sw?
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@fontana, I did primarily mean public companies. I realize some non-public for-profits can act differently, but rarely do IMO.
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@pete technically nothing...except that profit is what a capitalist calls a surplus, which is exploitative cause the wo…
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@pete a capitalist "owns" the means of the production but does not do the production, that is what the worker does and …
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@bkuhn companies, like soylent green, are made of people. And people have multiple and often inconsistent goals and ethics.
Christopher Allan Webber likes this. -
@fontana,I tend to agree w/ that, but at the moment I'd bet that's why most developers prefer proprietary. "Hoarders can get piles of money"
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â™» @copiesofcopies @bkuhn companies, like soylent green, are made of people. And people have multiple and often inconsistent goals and ethics
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@copiesofcopies, from what I've seen, when things get tough at a for-profit company, they just turn to do "do anything for cash"
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@bkuhn you're talking so abstractly that ∄ logical way to respond. ∄ a universal rule on the point you raise. (h/t @bkuhn)
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@copiesofcopies, so, by way of example, take !Canonical's recent obsession w/ being acquired & pushing developers to assign copyright.
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@copiesofcopies,many times, I've suggested to for-profits to release something as !FaiF & they refuse b/c it's making money as proprietary
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@bkuhn AFAICT the set from which you're extrapolating the behavior of "most" companies is actually very small and unlikely representative.
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@copiesofcopies,I'm extrapolating to most b/c most software for-profits don't release as !FaiF. Can you explain this behavior w/diff theory?
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Yow, @bkuhn—it might do us well if we could actually stop supporting the other guys' lies....
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@copiesofcopies, history of !FaiF software shows that for-profit software companies will only contribute when they've little choice left.
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@rozzin, many of the wealthiest people in the world made their money w/ proprietary software. Clearly it's obscenely profitable.
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@bkuhn Lots of other reasons: lack of education about FOSS, no experience running FOSS project, expectations of partners, etc.
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@copiesofcopies, I've plenty of examples of companies that knew plenty about FLOSS,but still refused requests to release b/c proprietary==$$
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@copiesofcopies, as for expectations of partners, I'd suspect their expectation is that proprietary is more profitable. & it is.
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@bkuhn I'm sure that's true, it's just not the only reason.
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@copiesofcopies, but it's the primary reason, b/c the primary purpose of a for-profit company is to make a profit. It's nearly tautology.
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@copiesofcopies, Even #Cygnus got frustrated w/ "billable hours only" nature of !FaiF. That e.g. really shows the common "profit obsession".
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BTW, @copiesofcopies, I hope you're right that for-profits aren't legally required to put profit 1st. I'd still argue they usually do anyway
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@pete what are you thoughts on profit and capitalism?
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@bkuhn right, just as it's plainly true that the primary purpose of a not-for-profit company is to not make profit.
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@copiesofcopies, OTOH, the distinction btw "standard of conduct" & "legally required" is probably too subtle for most situations.
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@copiesofcopies, what is the primary purpose of a for-profit corporation in your view then? What are they supposed to do?
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@marxistvegan The owner could create the surplus w/out the worker, but not vice versa. I don't see that as exploitative.
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@bkuhn @copiesofcopies it's capitalism after all. You have to compete ore you get crushed
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@marxistvegan If I work for you, I am creating a small piece of the surplus. In return I get a small piece of the surplus.
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@pete so if I understand a worker cannot create a surplus?
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@marxistvegan Certainly this has the potential for exploitation, but I don't think it is inherently so.
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@bkuhn for-profit corporations, like not-for-profit corporations, have a wide range of purposes and missions. Far too many to list.
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@bkuhn, gambling is profitable *only when you happen to win*.
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@marxistvegan not without capital. then they'd be an owner (or capitalist, if you will).
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@pete how do you get a small piece of the surplus I already paid you to make something, surplus comes from what you produce
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@marxistvegan (sorry, I'll try to keep my replies a little straighter)
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@copiesofcopies, my point remains that most software companies will mistreat their users to make more cash & won't change even when asked.
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@marxistvegan I get that piece of surplus in the form of money, which is simply a universal medium of deciding what surplus/profit is worth.
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@bkuhn, I could knock these arguments down..., but why do you even construct them in the first place?
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@copiesofcopies, maybe you disagree that proprietary sw is morally equivalent of toxic pollution. My analysis only works w/ that assumption
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@pete but if you pay is before the sale of said product then you are not seeing the surplus you are only part of the production
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@bkuhn, most people and organisations producing software for profit are not in the software-licensing business.
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@bkuhn it's not an analysis, it's a generalization from anecdotal evidence filtered through heavy personal bias.
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@bkuhn But maybe not every company means to make a *maximum* amount of money possible, so some non-public companies are ok with that?
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@copiesofcopies, !FaiF sw is well known enough now that anyone in software industry knows it's an option. Yet they still produce proprietary
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@cwebber, I think that some non-public companies are ok w/ that, but the #Cygnus story is !disturbing, as they were profitable & not public.
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@copiesofcopies, I haven't seen one example yet of a profitable proprietary software system released under !FaiF license. Have you?
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@marxistvegan Of course. If I do 10% of the work, and provide 0% of the capital, then I shouldn't expect to get 10% of the surplus.
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@marxistvegan Instead I get a predetermined amount of money (universal medium of exchange) as compensation for my labor.
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@copiesofcopies, Even #BeOS, which the community clamored for release as it was failing, held out & kept it proprietary for hopes of sale
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@pete so where did said capitalist gain their capital?
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@copiesofcopies, I don't know of any non-anecdotal evidence on this, but ∄ anecdotal examples of proprietary going !FaiF while profitable.
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@bkuhn I'm not sure what that the answer to that question would demonstrate here either way.
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@marxistvegan Any number of places. Perhaps from saving the surplus they received from their own labor.
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@copiesofcopies, if a company pollutes, it's only going to do it b/c it's profitable to do so. Proprietary software is the same.
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@marxistvegan I have to take off for a few hrs, but I would gladly continue the discussion when I return. Feel free to reply in my absense.
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@pete so do you see a problem with capitalism, the political economic system we currently are in?
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@copiesofcopies, BTW, I do realize most don't think proprietary sw harms others. Typically, those who don't think everything I say is wrong.
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@copiesofcopies, in other words, pretty much everything I say takes the idea that proprietary software harms people as an assumption.
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@marxistvegan I see several practical problems with the present system of state-supported capitalism and corporate personhood.
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@marxistvegan But I think to lump all those particulars together and come out with "capitalism is bad" is shortsighted and inaccurate.
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@marxistvegan Okay, really gotta go. talk to you later, I hope :)
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@bkuhn not really sure why that assumption is relevant to whether for-profit companies necessarily maximize profit to society's detriment.
X11R5 likes this. -
@fontana, I think the analogy fails in some ways b/c very few ppl argue pollution helps society, unlike with proprietary software.
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@copiesofcopies, I'm only speaking w/ regard to for-profit software companies. I have no expertise regarding other types of for-profits.
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@bkuhn just out of curiosity, does a software-for-hire relationship change your opinion about that in any way?
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@fontana, if Microsoft & Oracle were required to fund copyleft software development to gain right to sell proprietary licenses, it'd help
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@copiesofcopies, if proprietary sw harms society, only reason I can imagine someone doing is b/c they get some greedy desire fulfilled by it
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@copiesofcopies, the reason it's strange is "proprietary sw greed" is institutionalized such that most doing it don't even see it as harmful
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@bkuhn, idem to claim that building proprietary systems in hopes of future licensing is consistently profitable at all—let alone `moreso'.
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@rozzin, *but* most programmers rarely start from scratch; they are usually hired by someone else & make more if they do proprietary.
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@bkuhn, aren't you afraid that I might fail to knock your straw-men down—and that you'll end up advertising for the proprietarios?
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@bkuhn @ copiesofcopiesI don't think this is a question of greed. It's the system itself that requieres you to be profitable
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@bkuhn @copiesofcopies I don't think this is a question of greed. It's the system itself that requieres you to be profitable
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@rozzin,if people will easily abandon principle to try to get rich rather than earn reasonable living while helping others,we've lost anyway
drew Roberts likes this. -
@pete I am not arguing capitalism should never exist it needs to exist but there is life beyond capitalism that is not …
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@fontana, I said something like that in this thread: institution of proprietary sw has convinced most that it's at least "ok" if not "good".
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♺ @bkuhn: @rozzin,if people will easily abandon principle to try to get rich rather than earn reasonable living while…
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@bkuhn not sure we've lost already but it is certainly a sub-optimal situation.
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@bkuhn that this problem still persists is at least partly the fault of the customers...
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@bkuhn may depend on if it's publicly traded or not. may just be to give a sole proprietor limited liability protection. other reasons too.
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@bkuhn iirc i've always heard publicly traded corps must put shareholder value tops. could be urban legend for all i know. lawyers?
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@bkuhn surely there may exist other options for !FaiF software, art, music, etc.
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@bkuhn even their code that is no longer making money may be seen as competition for code that is now making money for them.
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@fontana are mutuals forbidden for some areas of commerce? if not, wonder why only "common" in a few areas. or am I more ignorant than i ...
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@fabsh Learn !scheme: it's the easiest difficult programming language, and a core component of the !gimp
Michael V. Antosha likes this. -
@bkuhn many options between doing things like we do now and eliminating capitalism. (for some definitions of capitalism at least I guess.)
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@bkuhn yep. it's somewhat like slavery, back when it was regarded as normal, useful and profitable
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@bkuhn I believe !FS is more profitable on average, but stddev on non-FS is ridiculously larger, so more obscene profits and losses
Mike Linksvayer and Richard Fontana like this. -
@bkuhn my belief is based on economic efficiency out of the economic incentives towards coopetition rather than tragedy of the commons
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@bkuhn http://ur1.ca/47fxi has some of my thoughts on why copyleft tends to be more advantageous to developers' profit
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@bkuhn also take into account that *most* (40x, in 2006) revenue in the software industry is out of services rather than lincensing
Richard Fontana likes this. -
@bkuhn and most of the developed software is internal or for-1-customer developments, which are both profitable cases of 1-user FS
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@marxistvegan just got in, wanted to say it was good talking with you. it's too rare to have a quality (and civil) discourse on such topics.
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@pete I can be civil and happy to have the discussion...so I guess my question is what about capitalism do you like?
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@marxistvegan I'll split this up (and oversimplify). 1st, Economic: Efficiency, increased standard of living ("rising tide lifts all boats")
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@marxistvegan 2nd, Moral: Self-sufficiency, the opportunity for personal advancement, the "surplus" itself I also see as a moral good
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@trashbird1240 No desire to do that.
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@bkuhn even if 'everyone knows' libre option, that knowledge is super shallow. hope proprietary=local maximum, much to learn/diffuse to esc
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@bkuhn in this vein, argument libre increases (measured $) equality underplayed, but I explain even to friendlies, they're underwhelmed :-/
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@marxistvegan NGOs afflicted by related earned income mantra. what better than proprietary licensing of NGO works, plus a unicorn rainbow!
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@mlinksva, money made from proprietary sw could be a local maximum. But the conventional wisdom won't be changed w/out huge counterexamples.
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@mlinksva, Indeed, I've argued often that the money making is more equalized with !FaiF software, going back a decade: http://ur1.ca/47lbx
der.hans likes this. -
@pete this sounds very much like trickle down economics, but if it isn't then the only time when boats were actually ri…
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@pete This 2nd point needs to be clarified moral self sufficiency and the term surplus does not make sense to me...let …
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@notch will we ever be able to smelt doors and buckets back into ingots? #minecraft
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@marxistvegan Not trickle down econ. I'm talking about things like the fact that nobody starves in this country.
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@marxistvegan Even our poor drive cars and typically have some kind of job. Stuff like that.
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@marxistvegan on my way to work, will check out your link in a while...
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@pete before you make blanket statements like no one starves in this country or the poor all have cars and jobs researc…
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@mlinksva I see there is some sarcasm but I don't really understand your point
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sofias. pink likes this.
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@marxistvegan I did not say "the poor all have cars." And it is damn hard to starve in this country. Damn hard.
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@marxistvegan I know well what it is to be poor in America. I grew up poor. But compared to a lot of places, even the poor here aren't poor.
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@pete I think comparing the level of poor doesn't justify anything it still means we have poor, we have neglected commu…
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@pete I am glad you know what it is like to be poor, I as well, but comparing where one comes from doesn't prove that t…
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@marxistvegan I'm not trying to justify or excuse anything. But comparing levels of poverty certainly is a valid exercise.
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@pete ok then if it is valid why are poverty levels in Europe lower than the US?
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@marxistvegan I didn't say "the system we are in works." Nor do I accept unemployment as good. And why does poverty exist anywhere?
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@marxistvegan FTR, I agree w/you about unemployment and wages, and I do think worker solidarity is a good way to combat that.
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@fontana our societies don't have to run corporations like that though. we could, for instance, only allow "single purpose" corporations.
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@pete it doesn't stop at workers solidarity, workers organizing is in response to the conflict between workers and owne…
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@pete poverty exists because the capitalist system requires it so workers feel the pressure of the reserve army of work…
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@marxistvegan Then why does poverty exist in non-capitalist systems?
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@marxistvegan I have no issue with worker organization. I think it's necessary, especially in a world where the owners obviously organize.
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@marxistvegan But on that note, why don't the workers get themselves some means of production? That goes back to yesterday's "10%/0%" idea.
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@marxistvegan Side thought: That's a big problem with the present system. The owners are effectively socialized and the workers are not.
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@pete i think the only system that might be considered non-capitalist would be cuba, and though the country is poor the…
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@marxistvegan Poverty is rampant among pre-industrial, "developing" economies. Tribal systems and such. Everyone's poor. Why is that?
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@pete I agree worker should be better organized, but since the 1970s globally and in the US specifically capitalists at…
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@pete I ask this to challenge the idea that the only reason for poverty is capitalist gaming of the system. I agree that that is one reason.
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@pete to a huge extent capitalism and imperialism are to responsible for poverty, depressing uprises by intervention fr…
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@marxistvegan Agreed. Again, the owners are organized. It's one-sided socialism, in a way. And that's fucked up. On that we have no dispute.
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@marxistvegan Yet poverty existed (and was vastly worse) before that. Why? (We are agreed re: imperialism.)
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@pete I think we are going too abstract here, the point being that capitalism via imperialism keeps poverty high, oil i…
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@marxistvegan I don't think it's off point at all. To pin all blame for poverty worldwide upon capitalism is just unsupportable.
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@marxistvegan Nor does capitalism require imperialism. (I realize you didn't claim it did, I just wanted to put that out there.)
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@pete there are examples of non-capitalist worker run collectives...Mondragon (basque co-op comes to mind) that do show…
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@marxistvegan I think (and this happens with a lot of my friends and me) we're having a vocabulary problem.
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@marxistvegan The problems you attribute to capitalism, I agree are problems, but I attribute them to imperialism and corporatism.
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@pete imperialism I would argue is actually the final stage of capitalism seen mostly in monopoly powers...oil industry…
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@marxistvegan Agreed on this. I don't think that's anti-capitalist at all, and I think it's a great idea that more of us should be doing.
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@pete corporatism is part of capitalism it can't exist without capitalism
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@pete a good book that elaborates on imperialism and capitalism is by lenin.. will look up the book when I get home
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@marxistvegan Agreed re: corporatism. But the reverse is not true. Corporatism is not a necessary endgame of capitalism.
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@pete i apologize as I will directly discuss marxist theory which does change the definitions from mainstream understa…
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@marxistvegan I totally disagree with this. The Soviet Union and the PRC were/are imperialist powers. Further historical examples abound.
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@marxistvegan That's fine, we've been able thus far to back up when we have differing definitions. That's a sign of good discourse, I think.
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@pete i would agree the soviet union was authoritarian but not imperial, but looking deeper into the countries in the U…
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@pete yeah certainly it is.
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@marxistvegan I'm sticking by imperialist. They held peoples that did not want to be under their rule by military force. That's imperialism.
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@marxistvegan Certainly agreed that the USSR was by no means "socialist," but by that token, the USA can barely be considered "capitalist."
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@pete this is where vocab is an issue...imperialism as I see it is much like colonizing taking over land and country wi…
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@marxistvegan Did the Soviet Union not do just that?
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@pete I entirely disagree the US is capitalist at all ends! we are a neoliberal system
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@pete with poland yes but again that was a stalin move, under the ussr the internal battle to lift the invasions was bi…
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@marxistvegan (Warning, loaded words ahead.) I'd argue that the US is more akin to Mussolini's definition of fascism. http://ur1.ca/47nss
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@marxistvegan I'm not trying to put you in the position of defending that. Just giving an example of a non-capitalist imperialist state.
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@marxistvegan Speaking of capitalism, I've gotta get some work done, I may be sporadic for the next little while ;)
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@pete I'll be ack later too...
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@fontana, I often wondered why Bailey Building & Loan had audits by bank examiner; I concluded it was effectively an S&L. #ItsAWonderfulLife
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@fontana, 1 year, I developed theory that Bailey Building & Loan was a Credit Union, which would make it not-for-profit. #ItsAWonderfulLife
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@fontana, I have an idea: you and I should together make a commentary track for #ItsAWonderfulLife this year! Are you interested?
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@fontana, OTOH, commentary track is likely derivative work of the film. Even though #ItsAWondefulLife is out of ©, "The Greatest Gift" isn't
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@bkuhn @fontana Could just be writer's license? #ItsAWonderfulLife (I always suspected #STTNG was scripted using a mad-libs method.)
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@bkuhn writer's license is the idea that an author can do whatever they want to move the story w/o conforming to external law/rules/facts.
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@fontana, would you do that research for this commentary track I just committed you to doing with me this year? #ItsAWonderfulLife
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@lxoliva I take issue with your statement that in described: "they could reach a Pareto optimum". Either finking would give better option.
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@lxoliva I take issue with your statement that in described: "they could reach a Pareto optimum". Either finking would give better option.
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@fontana, would we have a fair use defense if we do it non-commercially & for educational use only? Seems we'd have a good defense.
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@fontana, we two wanting to do quasi- !FaiF -sw-related commentary track for #ItsAWonderfulLife can't possibly be important enough for @eff.
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@bkuhn What if you didn't use your !problematic #ItsAWonderfulLife slides, and just discussed the narrative, surely that's non-infringing?
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@kevingranade, yes, just talking *about* the work without making the commentary track "line up" w/ the movie is likely non-infringing.
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@fontana,see,I think we might not fit parody, but would hit other areas of fair use. If you think it's not fair use, I'd find it !disturbing
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@kevingranade,something can often be a derivative work even it doesn't copy or redistribute the original work. alt. audio tracks usually are
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@fontana, are you saying you are just too chilly to consider this wonderful idea I've had about audio commentary for #ItsAWonderfulLife?
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@bkuhn Can you point to clarification? I have trouble believing that a work is infringing without inclusion of anything from the original.
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@kevingranade, @fontana & @copiesofcopies would be better at quoting which cases indicate this best. I don't have good ref at my fingertips
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@fontana, we could just watch the film on the phone with each other & record it & decide whether or not we can distribute it later, you know
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@bkuhn @kevingranade "It's complicated." See character copyright cases, deep-linking cases, Duke Nukem cases, art tile cases...
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@bkuhn you could probably agruge both of those things too, if you were using the movie as examples of issues with #SoftwareFreedom
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@diablomarcus I don't get it; how would they fink without breaking the agreement, and how could that get them an overall better payoff?
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@fontana, appears to be merely a tourism trap to get people to visit Seneca Falls, NY: http://www.therealbedfordfalls.com/ #NotBedfordFalls
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@lxoliva Ah, I guess my complaint is that there is not any punishment or negative assigned to breaking the agreement in the paper.
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@diablomarcus even without a penalty, the result is still worse overall: 2+0 < 2+1
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@bkuhn @fontana @copiesofcopies Ran across this paper while researching, interesting background. [PDF] http://ur1.ca/481o1
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@lxoliva How strange... You use straight Maximin. blonde gives mX 2 while brunette gives mX 1. If both have brunette, why wouldn't one fink?
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@diablomarcus are we talking of the same scenario? they agree on which one goes for the blonde, to avoid the rejection scenario
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@bkuhn Perhaps "creative license" is the more common phrase?
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@fontana When is deriv not transitive? When C derives only from B original work, nothing of A retained? Intersects with GPL/MIT-patch convo?
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@kevingranade #replicant test is "what happens if nice org leadership is replaced with evil org leadership" ?
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@pete don't want you to think I am done ;) working for a capitalist pig exhausts me intellectually speaking...I'll be b…
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@marxistvegan I will polish up my libertarian rhetoric, and we shall meet at high noon with guns blazing! :)
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@pete libertarian I can work with high noon...I am an east coast boy those middle and mid west states don't count on my map ;)
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@bkuhn somehow I missed gnu.org/philosophy/gpl-american-dream or didn't bother to figure out 404 in parent. I mean society-wide/global...
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@bkuhn ...income/wealth/power distribution, not just within-industry, though latter easier to demonstrate.
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