Conversation
Notices
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@kevingranade I'm not attacking !CC, I'm questioning !CC because it could very easily lead to perpetual copyright via perpetual licensing.
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cc music with the NC clause is only cool if all you wanna do is listen. if you wanna use it, though, it gets friggin' complicated!
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@lostnbronx a lotta folks are mistaken about the point of the NC clause
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@thistleweb a lot of folks are confused by !copyright full stop
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@laurelrusswurm I don't use the NC clause because I happened to hear the reason for it before I started producing anything
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@laurelrusswurm or, not so much the reasons, but the downsides and restrictons in using it
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@thistleweb What downside specifically?
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@laurelrusswurm Creative Commons means you want people to share it, the NC clause puts limits on who can share it
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@thistleweb But *every* !cc license puts limits on how you can share ... cc-by says you can only share with attribution
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@thistleweb Re cyberattacks/Acts of War also seems ominous in terms of Wikileaks, Anonymous et al. The trashing of the …
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@thistleweb the problem: anyone DLing a derivative work must abide by the most restrictive license of all the original stuff IN said work.
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@laurelrusswurm I think you're forgetting about the !cc zero and public domain licenses
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@jdea Nope. Once something is in the !public domain it is is in the public domain, no longer under any license.
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@laurelrusswurm That depends on the laws of the country you're in. Not all countries allow you to give up your copyright once you have it.
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@jdea There is no "public domain license". Creative Commons have defined a standard way to mark things that are indeed in the public domain.
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@clacke My mistake; thanks for the correction.
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@jdea I can destroy my work, just not make it free.
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@laurelrusswurm Hence the !cc 0 license: it gives up as much as possible under applicable law. Any limits are imposed by law, not license.
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@lostnbronx You can get around that by creating derivative works that are based on free-er material
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@laurelrusswurm a CC licence does limit to attribution, it does not say a commercial org can't share it, a NC does
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@thistleweb every CC licence carries limits... NC does NOT stop a commercial org from sharing, but from selling it.
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@laurelrusswurm read it again, if a commercial broadcaster wants to play your tune, it can't do NC, even if it's not making money directly
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@thistleweb That doesn't sound right. If they aren't generating commercial I don't see why Non Commercial should be a problem.
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@laurelrusswurm there was an ep of #LinuxOutlaws ages ago where this was discussed, it's why they changed to remove the NC part of theirs
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@laurelrusswurm it was an interview with @bkuhn where he pointed it out, it's a common misunderstanding
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@thistleweb Last year I got permission to use an all rights reserved © song to score soccer video I made for my son's team
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@laurelrusswurm the show as a whole is commercial, each part plays a part in it, therefore it's classed as commercial
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@laurelrusswurm that's why they licence anything they use as "for commercial use", even if it's for a culture or news segment
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@thistleweb Are you talking about a commercial broadcast where commercials running throughout the show?
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@laurelrusswurm @thistleweb learning a lot.
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@laurelrusswurm commercial broadcast yes, with or without advertising, if it's a for-profit show, then everything they do is classed as such
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@laurelrusswurm many commercial shows don't accept any CC as legal yet, but even those who do, the NC clause is something they can't use
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@thistleweb Even a news segment is funded by commercials. If commercial broadcaster set aside a non-profit timeslot with no commercials?
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@laurelrusswurm we're splitting hairs here, I'm sure there's some combo that will squeeze it in, but the norm is it's not allowed
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@laurelrusswurm I'd happily have my stuff publicised on a commercial national TV show, I don't hope they meet all that criteria
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@laurelrusswurm I'd rather not use the NC clause so they don't have to meet all that criteria to legally use it and give me publicity
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@laurelrusswurm ultimately if people are gonna make money from your stuff, you're in the same boat as big content, do you spend legal money?
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@thistleweb I realize that copyright law is rarely what we think, but i expect !cc to make sense... NC should mean noncommercial
headphonica netlabel likes this. -
@laurelrusswurm or do you use the extra attention? as long as they attribute you and don't claim it as theirs, that's the real thing
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@laurelrusswurm as I said, initially I favored NC for those very reasons, until I found out what the reality of NC means, it changed my mind
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@laurelrusswurm @bkuhn will be able to explain it better than me, my knowledge came from a !lo interview with him
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@thistleweb attribution is civilized. i can't see bankrupting people oe putting them in jail for copyright infringement, even commercially.
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@thistleweb but i would go to law for plagiarism. But not if someone didn't give me attribution.
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@laurelrusswurm my point is that if someone doesn't respect your licence, your choice is to leave it, or spend legal money to enforce it
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@laurelrusswurm that goes for any licence, plenty of people don't respect big content licences, their choice is the same
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@thistleweb yes. I expect people to respect my license. But I wouldn't wield copyright law if they don't.
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@laurelrusswurm exactly, it's about perspective, so even a NC won't stop someone selling it, but will stop a legal organisation using it
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@laurelrusswurm so as much as it sounds like a good idea, NC does put extra limits on who can legally use it, illegal users don't care
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@thistleweb a big problems with copyright law is that copyright benefits the manufacturer/distributor ("big content") not creators
rozzin's identicat ghost likes this. -
@thistleweb if we must have copyright, the only ones who out to be able to hold copyright are actual creators.
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@laurelrusswurm you're preaching to the converted, I use Creative Commons for everything I do
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@thistleweb Yes, I know. For myself, I've got a NC on my 1st novel, but I'm going to !cc0 it in 5 years.
rozzin's identicat ghost likes this. -
@laurelrusswurm unfortunately that's the ONLY viable alternative, and unfortunately, it forces one to make artistic compromises.
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@lostnbronx I know, but if we support the old !copyright regime, there is no impetus to change. I used to listen to the radio, now @jamendo
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@lostnbronx I can't excise culture I've absorbed over my lifetime, !copyright or no, but I can stop looking among restrictive work for new.
rozzin's identicat ghost likes this. -
@laurelrusswurm i agree, but no creator should settle for less: compromise in art is a sin of its own. however, adversity as inspiration...?
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@laurelrusswurm i believe laws that interfere with the creative process are dangerous, and should be seen as dictates handed down by enemies
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@lostnbronx do you know @crosbie ?
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@laurelrusswurm i do not.
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@laurelrusswurm following him now. ty
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@lostnbronx He is a !copyright abolitionist with a lot of interesting things to say http://culturalliberty.org/blog/
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@laurelrusswurm yes, i'm going through his site now. interesting stuff
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@laurelrusswurm Either that or he keeps spourting random bullshit all day. Haven't fully decided yet. @lostnbronx
Alistair McKinlay likes this. -
@fabsh you don't have to agree with everything, or even ANYTHING, a man says in order to learn something from him.
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@lostnbronx Have you read his stuff? Oo
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@fabsh ... and an open mind, both of which can be very much in short supply in our modern world.
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@laurelrusswurm I think he's delusional and has no clue what reality is really like.
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@laurelrusswurm As is common sense and the ability to cut through empty talk. Talk is cheap.
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@fabsh not yet. gimme time.
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@lostnbronx Enjoy.
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@fabsh now, now...don't infect me with your anti-anyone-who-pisses-Fab-off cooties! I'll make up my own mind, ty!
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@fabsh Certainly you have a right to your own opinion.
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@laurelrusswurm Have you discussed the GPL with him? He has zero answers, only intelligent-sounding quackerie.
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@fabsh Having survived a "common sense revolution" I find I value uncommon sense more highly.
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@fabsh Common Sense = Family Feud TV show "The Survey says..."
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@laurelrusswurm Suffíce it to say written works can't be equated to software.
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@laurelrusswurm "Common sense" is my shorthand for "don't be a stupid moron, think FFS!"
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@laurelrusswurm Innovation requires answers. We all know the current system is broken, you don't need to be a genius to figure that one out.
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@laurelrusswurm Yes. And all you copyright abolutionists come back to me when you figured out how free software (in a copyleft sense) ...
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@laurelrusswurm ... can survive when you get rid of copyright. Before you figure that out, don't talk to me.
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@fabsh There was an excellent story called "The Marching Morons" written by Cyril M. Kornbluth in the 1950's that you should read
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@laurelrusswurm And you should read the GPL.
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@fabsh Why not contract law? (Says me, who knows next to nothing about the law.)
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@laurelrusswurm Yes. And without copyright we'd have mayhem (aka lots of assholes like Apple pulling BSD-ripoffs).
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@bkuhn I think it would make it worse. It would take the one working weapon we have away and we'd get little in return.
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@bkuhn how about !copyright abolition with a !copyleft twist, as in http://ur1.ca/4bp1e ?
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@pete Because without copyright you'd lose any ownership over your code too.
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@fabsh, agreed. But it took me a decade to realize that point myself. Maybe I'm just dense. or a slow learner. :)
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@laurelrusswurm You don't need to be a lawyer to understand the GPL. RMS isn't a lawyer either.
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@lxoliva, sure it can be done. But we'll never convince any legislator to support it, I don't think. Not in our lifetimes, anyway.
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@bkuhn It's not straightforward. I think I've somewhat profited from others trailblazing this before my F/OSS time. People like you.
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@bkuhn Coubnterintuitive? I'm surprised. It's always struck me as obvious that copyright abolition would be a godsend to propietary sw vends
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@fabsh, I sure hope that's true. Otherwise, I'm just a moron who takes forever to figure things out. But it means you "kids" sure impress me
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@bkuhn how about !copyright abolition with a !copyleft twist, as in http://ur1.ca/4b99g ? (fixed URL)
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@laurelrusswurm It's not speculation. You take away the only working legal framework we have to prevent it, what's gonna happen?
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@fabsh True. But it takes time and effort when one is not.
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@laurelrusswurm Before you accuse me of speculation give me some watertight counter arguments of your own.
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@laurelrusswurm Or as we used to say in Duisburg: Butter bei die Fische!
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@bkuhn You're far from a moron. You're definitely a lot smarter than me. You're literally one of the giants I stand on. :)
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@bkuhn It's more likely a reflection that I didn't really give any of this any thought until about five years ago and from the perspective..
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@fabsh First, I don't see anything wrong in speculation, just in equating speculation with fact.
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@bkuhn ... of having long experience of dealing with software vendors :o)
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@fabsh Just don't stand on his coc.
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@laurelrusswurm I think the GPL is actually easier to understand if you *aren't* a lawyer. It's written for coders.
Richard Fontana likes this. -
@fabsh The problem with "legal frameworks" is that they don't even equally protect people anymore. They're only there for people with money.
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@laurelrusswurm This is why a lot of companies don't get it at all (at the decision-making level) IMO.
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@laurelrusswurm It also explains why it's so hard to enforce the GPL in court and out, IMHO.
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@fabsh What's really needed is a way to protect ownership without being dependent on an already-screwed-up legal system.
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@fabsh Without a time machine, nothing is written in stone ... even with, if there are alternate time lines, nothing is written in stone.
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@fabsh Considering how demented many "coder" things appear to noncoders, that is not necessarily an advantage
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@laurelrusswurm Forgive me if I don't speculate on alternate timelines in legal matters.... Oo
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@laurelrusswurm asking for attribution is not a restriction, is the moral right every author has
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@laurelrusswurm No, but you haven't convinced me it would be better.
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@bkuhn You don't have to convince a legislator if you make your own country with that as the law. Might be less complicated.
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@bkuhn Certainly not if smart people like you give up without even trying to convince legislators.
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@fabsh only weapon, nothing in return? wrong, wrong
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@carocr No. The moral right every author has is to not be plagiarized.
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@fabsh I don't know that it would be. But I am curious. What I do know is that the current system is very bad for creativity & thus culture
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@mlinksva You don't have to agree but I don't see many alternatives.
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@laurelrusswurm,If you show me a lobbying org that's working on © abolition w/ a solution that protects software freedom, I'll support them.
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@mlinksva All the copyright abolutionists tell me I'm oh so wrong and when I ask why there's a lot of white noise.
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@laurelrusswurm That's your opinion. I only do CC and it works for everyone who wants to use my stuff.
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@carocr There is no requirement to attribute the words written by Shakespeare to Shakespeare because his works are in the public domain...
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@laurelrusswurm and How do you avoid being plagiarized when people don't attribute that work to you?
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@carocr ... but that does not mean that anyone else may take credit for those words.
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@laurelrusswurm it's not because of public domain, it's because of fame... and you still must attribute Shakespeare...
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@carocr you can be plagiarized even when people *do* attribute work to you (ask any school principal)
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@laurelrusswurm even if he never attributed all the authors he read or knew before he made his derived works
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@laurelrusswurm To be fair, trying to get legislators in most countries to do things right often leads to learned helplessness.
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@carocr I first noticed Shakespeare's words being used without attribution by original Star Trek series
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@laurelrusswurm I think we can make some reasonable guesses about the result of copyright abolition, and they are not good
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@laurelrusswurm Copyright as it's currently implemented is broken, but to call for abolition causes more problems than it solves
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@laurelrusswurm of course you can be plagiarized So?
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@carocr I titled my novel "Inconstant Moon" and was surprised that sf fans think it is in homage to Larry Niven's story
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@laurelrusswurm How would you enforce the right not to be plagiarized without copyright?
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@laurelrusswurm Ok, just think about this, who will know those are Shakespeare's words if nobody ever gave him the attribution for his work?
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@carocr Yet both of us took the phrase from Shakespeare http://ur1.ca/4bp95
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@laurelrusswurm No, because of the moral right we exercise through attribution, something you said, was a restriction
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@expatpaul It depends on how its done. Right now, how it's done depends on state coersion and legal force.
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@carocr But it is a restriction, and might be onerous depending on use.
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@laurelrusswurm Really? As I understand it copyright is the only way of asserting your ownership of a creative work. What other laws exist?
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@fabsh sorry my dents in http://identi.ca/conversation/69035489 are whitenoise. Funny this and that started with complaints re CC NC. :-\
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@laurelrusswurm True. But that's an argument for reform, not an argument for abolition
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@mlinksva I wasn't talking about you. You didn't discuss this with me before. :)
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@laurelrusswurm Well, some people also say the #GPL restricts their freedom... I just give up! Nice talking to you but I must work now :-)
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@expatpaul Until recently, the public has obeyed it because we have been duped into thinking it supports creators when in fact it is used...
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@expatpaul ...more often to place creators into Indentured Servitude.
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@carocr It's a thorny subject. Nice talking to you :)
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@laurelrusswurm I'd prefer to call "by" a condition. You get permissions for complying. Restrictions are ©- not license-based.
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@laurelrusswurm A work-around can be a solution.
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@mlinksva But if you use it without attribution, the licensor could wield copyright law against you in court, as it were.
Crosbie Fitch likes this. -
@laurelrusswurm All I'm saying is come up with a final solution or a clear path for it before crying for change that could make things worse
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@laurelrusswurm I am most likely jaded because I've seen in my studied what happens to political revolutions that don't do this.
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@laurelrusswurm Ie you have this great idea for an utopian state, kick off change hastily end end up with 40 years of tyranny.
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@fabsh Those who want control want power. The privilege of #copyright is a grant of power. Sounds to me like you want #copyright.
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@fabsh The way to find a solution is by examining, discussing, exchanging points of view; copyright was initially imposed by monarchy...
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@fabsh ... and it directly impacts on human culture. I think it is something that needs to be looked at and worked out by humans...
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@laurelrusswurm Like I say... Current copyright implementaion is broken and needs reform, but abolition would do more harm than good
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@crosbie No. I want to control my code so it can only be used for good. Control != bad in every case.
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@laurelrusswurm Once again: Put up or shut up. Stop criticising me and then evade question about what you'd do better.
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@fabsh ...no solution should be imposed on human culture by governments or special interest corporations
speeddefrost likes this. -
@carocr people who say that are confusing freedom and power. GPL restricts power over others, but not freedom
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@fabsh Last night I watched the documentary about the restoration of Fritz Lang's Metropolis, an incredibly important bit of human culture
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@laurelrusswurm Yeah, whatever. I don't care where it came from. Newsflash for you: the universe isn't perfect. Take off the pink glasses!
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@fabsh Metropolis was butchered, and nearly lost.
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@lxoliva I agree but thanks. I couldn't explain that so clearly :-)
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@laurelrusswurm Last night, I ate an incredibly huge fish.
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@fabsh control to what end? an end different than software freedom?
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@laurelrusswurm, sometimes when I read @crosbie (or anyone else), I can't help but think...: http://ur1.ca/4bpds
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@fabsh 'control my code' => 'control what other people do with my published work' => unnatural power => privilege.
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@mlinksva No. I believe people are bad. I want control over my code to be able to enforce software freedom.
John Drinkwater likes this. -
@crosbie That's your opinion. And you're wrong. But I'm guessing this isn't news to anyone....
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@fabsh I am a member of humanity; human culture is important to me.
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@laurelrusswurm You are criticising the system we have but your alternatives are only wishy-washy handwavy ideas.
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@fabsh Once again, I was minding my own business and you introduced yourself into a conversation, initially appeared willing to be civilized
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@fabsh bit the pink glasses are the in thing the now. They look awesome. Like elton john ;-)
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@fabsh ok, if your end is freedom, I don't understand your dent "I'm not talking about freedom" above
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@mlinksva What I mean "freedom" in the sense of BSD freedom.
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@mlinksva The GPL gives me control which is a means to the end of software freedom.
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@mlinksva Ie. I restrict other people's ultimate freedom to respect software freedom.
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@yamanickill Or that Beatles fella. Shotguns, I tell you...
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@fabsh surely you don't believe GPL gives you control such that your code "can only be used for good"?!
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@fabsh what type? I like fish. Salmon is especially nice...
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@yamanickill I made it up actually. I had salat. ;)
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@mlinksva "Good" meaning "good in the sense of being free software".
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@fabsh Ok, if I'm wrong, then you have a natural power to control what other people do with your published work. Are you sure about that?
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@crosbie "unnatural" is whitenoise and "privilege" gives censors too much credit. Overall 18th century vocabulary just makes you obscure.
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@crosbie I don't even know what natural power is. Right now I have legal power which is ace and enables a lot of good work.
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@kevingranade That is exactly what I am concerned about; the public domain is critical. Particularly as culture is not forged in a vacuum.
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@fabsh aw...sad :-( I want some haddock the now...
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@fontana I hope he does. He wrote it! :D
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@fabsh ah ok, the conventional and reasonable software freedom perspective. Couching this as being about control needlessly obscure.
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@fabsh our conservation looks funny in the context of the whole thing...ahhhh life is fun...
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@fabsh Before one can fix a broken system, it is necessary to identify how it is broken. The exchange of ideas is part of the process.
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@fabsh erm...wind or solar power? ;-)
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@fabsh I'm wishy washy because I believe human beings are capable of amazing things; dictatorship is something to which I will never aspire.
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@crosbie monster trucks can drive through "have/need by nature - protected by government". Glad yr abolitionist, even for unsound reasons.
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@mlinksva Is it? I think it's important how control is used in copyleft in comparison to liberal licenses.
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@laurelrusswurm We know how it is broken. What comes next is the hard part.
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@laurelrusswurm A lot of others will, though. We have to safeguard against that.
speeddefrost likes this. -
@fabsh Really? Your concerns do not seem to parallel mine.
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@laurelrusswurm Mabye because I produce audio and am interested in software?
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@fabsh sure, when making that comparison, but "I'm not talking about freedom" above is incorrect. You're talking about how to get/keep frdm
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@mlinksva Yes, I say incorrect things from time to time. I'm human, after all.... ;)
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@fabsh me2, with caveats that I'm mostly wrong and barely human.
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@laurelrusswurm Do you mean that any "by" clause is a restriction? I think I can agree with that, but not sure.
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@fabsh but it requires being a politician to be very obtuse and confuse innovation with patents. Just today I witnesses it three PT parties.
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@band the cc-by clause allows you to use the work *only* if you provide attribution
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@fabsh I face copyright issues as a creator from a family of creators, in art, music, words and code and as a member of culture & humanity
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@kevingranade The !publicdomain is being starved but it is not yet dead; and work is still going into the public domain, albeit slowly.
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@laurelrusswurm Maybe some real world injected into that mix from time to time would be good.
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@kevingranade The problem with all !copyleft license schemes is (a) they are all built on a foundation of !copyright (b) could last forever
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@kevingranade which would mean everything would be licensed, and nothing would ever go into the public domain.
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@laurelrusswurm copylefts have to be built on copyrights to be protected by law. it's unfortunate, but the existing legal system is to blame
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@laurelrusswurm I am not dictating anything. All I'm saying is that I ahven't heard anything constructive out of you yet.
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@laurelrusswurm And why is my view narrow???
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@nspyraishn I understand that is how the world is now. However, I don't think that is how the world should always be.
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@nspyraishn Laws are man-made and can be changed. Not long ago, women and children were considered property; I am pleased that changed :)
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@fabsh you indicated your interest in copyright issues was based on the fact you "produce audio and am interested in software"
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@fabsh I am looking for answers; you are busy telling me what I may ask and dismissing any views contrary to your own in a knee-jerk fashion
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@fabsh Perhaps you should listen and consider what others say sometimes; it is amazing how much there is to learn.
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"@rms has fairly good understanding [of GPL]" — @fontana
Bradley M. Kuhn and Richard Fontana like this. -
@laurelrusswurm yes. but you can avoid © restriction if you comply with BY condition. :)
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@mlinksva However mild, "by" *is* a restriction
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@laurelrusswurm No. I'm not dismissing anything because there's nothing from you to dismiss.
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@laurelrusswurm I'm really getting sick of this. I've told you several times to say something of consequence to dispute my ideas.
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@laurelrusswurm All I'm getting from you is random quibs, no substance. It's a waste of my time, TBH.
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@laurelrusswurm thanks for that key point re "by" == "*only* with attribution. Query: do you favor social norms?
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@ruiseabra: Can you tell us whom?
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@band I'm not sure what you mean by "do you favor social norms" ? I think more people need to play nicely.
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@kevingranade You're assuming that copyright terms are not going to continue to be extended.
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@laurelrusswurm I think"play nicely" captures what I mean. Thanks.
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@kevingranade That strikes me as a dreadful idea. I prefer a protected public domain.
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@kevingranade Currently !copyleft depends on the continuation of !copyright which comes with ever-increasing term extensions.
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@kevingranade !Copyleft licenses therefore prop up !copyright. The !publicdomain is the victim.
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@kevingranade Sure it does because !copyleft props up !copyright. We are seeing !fsw and !freeculture people championing !copyright
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@kevingranade I hate to tell you this, but the world is bigger than the US. !Canada 's shorter !copyright terms mean that heaps of ...
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@kevingranade ... recorded !Canadian music is being preserved because it was fortunate enough to make it into the !PublicDomain
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@kevingranade Yes it is insane. Some work is being preserved http://ur1.ca/ts4x which is better than lost forever.
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@kevingranade We have the tools to preserve our creative culture, yet greed is eradicating it. 90% of silent films are lost?
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@laurelrusswurm Heh. C.M. Kornbluth was a genius!
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@wayneborean Yes. Tragically lost far too young.
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@kevingranade for instance... http://identi.ca/notice/75113553
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@kevingranade Claims?
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@fontana, I don't see much what European lawyers say, since they refuse to let me even hear what they say, so I haven't seen this phenomenon
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Oh, before @copiesofcopies feelings are hurt: I met @copiesofcopies bf. he was a lawyer, so he'll never be a "lawyer I met" in my mind.
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@laurelrusswurm "perpetual copyright via perpetual [CC] licensing" really doubt it, already at ~∞©, but worth guarding against CC abetting
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