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@fontana Sun's control-freak-ism around Java in 1995 was essential. The problem was never realising it was no longer a good strategy.
about a year ago from web-
Fedora is changing file systems more often then some people shower. Very !disturbing...
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@eightyeight, I hate the "must know how many inodes you need at filesystem create time" of #ext3 & #ext4. So choice at time btw #jfs & #xfs.
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@bkuhn, I have yet to learn so many basic things about filesystems... bookmarked that dent for further look.
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@eightyeight,I used #xfs for a few years, but had trouble always getting drive cache settings right to avoid data loss. #jfs' better on that
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@eightyeight, at time I decided to leave #ext3, this was best article I found re: comparing alternatives: http://ur1.ca/4dnwr
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@eightyeight, I don't use #LVM b/c features don't outweigh overhead you suffer for it. I use #RAID1 on raw device, then crypto, then #jfs.
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@eightyeight I have used it before, it's decent (fast to create, fast to fsck, doesn't have data loss rumours like xfs). Has a recovery too.
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@bkuhn soft raid isn't a liability ???
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@ralesk Said recovery tool (jfsrec) has saved me from losing data from my own mistake with a bad backup session in 2009.
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@bkuhn I don't understand what you get from using it, TBH.
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@agentsmith, what do you mean by "liability"? Software #RAID has overhead, but the feature of being able to yank a drive and rebuild is key.
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@osamak Totally a move by Red Hat to get some btrfs testing done.
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@bkuhn Aesome feature. Until the rebuild doesn't work.
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@bkuhn I mean, when it goes haywire, your data is lost. LVM is still more reliable, IMHO. But, that's me.
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@x1101 RAID cards can have the same problem. RAID isn't as stable a technology as people think IMO.
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@fabsh isnt that what #Fedora is for? #SomeSarcasmButNotReally
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@fabsh no, probably not. But better than nothing.
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@x1101 If you ask the FPL, no.
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@x1101 RAID is so old-fashioned. It's all going to SSDs. Much better technology than spinning platters...
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@fabsh ack
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@fabsh You're trolling right? If so, bravo, if not you need to look into all of the SSDs that internally RAID their chips.
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@kevingranade You are aware that they do that for totally different reasons then HDDs, right?
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@agentsmith, I've never had a data loss due to #RAID1. #RAID5 is horrible b/c of typical drive failure modes of multiples at a time.
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@fabsh My point is that your comment that SSD > RAID is very apples-and-oranges. In many cases you'd still want to RAID SSDs for redundancy.
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@bkuhn dont you have to trick mount/fstab for that to work correctly thou? tell a RAID1 device its of the type of the fs it was mirroring?
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@x1101, I wouldn't say tricking. Obviously it doesn't autodetect what's there. But I know all my partitions are LUKS anyway.
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@kevingranade Why do you need redundancy on SSDs besides backups?
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@fabsh These are defaults. Nothing in the world prevents you from sticking to ext3 forever.
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@bkuhn Dude, I've now seen every single RAID mode fail.
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@mcepl I know. I care for defaults.
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@fabsh That's pretty much it, RAID != backup, but it can keep your system running in case of a failure, and some people want that.
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@fabsh also, it is not likely there is any surprise in BTRFS coming. It has been lurking behind the corner since Fedora 9.
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@fabsh Redundancy is not backups, redundancy is fault tolerance.
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@kevingranade And it can totally break and screw up your system too. I've seen that happen often.
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@mcepl Yeah, and nobody uses it.
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@windigo Why do SSDs need that? They are inherently much more redundant.
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@fabsh sure, me neither ... but I guess making it default will require some substantial improvements (e.g., working btrfsck).
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@fabsh Actually, while they can detect and "repair" some failures, they are more prone to "total data loss" failure modes than SRPs.
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@fabsh not really, that doesn't make sense. Redundancy is about having something step in when one thing fails.
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@fabsh Maybe internally, but there's still a chance the whole SSD fails. If that happens your server goes down.
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@windigo rsync, baby!
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@x1101, #ESX, and all #VMWare products, and the fact that people choose them over the excellent !FaiF alternatives are all quite !disturbing
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@bkuhn ack, but I still consider it (slightly) better than using hyper-V
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@fabsh Heh, I'm not talking about losing your data - just server downtime. Of course you still have to back up everything. :)
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@windigo yeah, I've heard of some SSDs that have built in RAID5 on the chips, but they're much more expensive (obviously).
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@yamatt I had a disk fail in a RAID array. I was staggered to see it hold up until we shoved in a hot spare and watched the LVM resilver.
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@yamatt Wow, nice - that would prevent a catastrophic drive failure. Wondering how it would let you know a drive's RAID is compromised?
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@x1101 Exactly so. It's what the sales man told me, it's what the manuals said but even so I was still staggered to actually see it work.
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@windigo I guess in the same way hard disks tell you now that they've detected vibration, or too hot or whatever.
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@andyc happens here all the time on webservers running software raid on shitty hardware
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@andyc yeah, it's quite cool when you catch it. I hope to be switching to ZFS on my NAS soon.
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@x1101, I don't seek to be cruel, but you do get to pick. You've chosen to work there & stay there despite proprietary management directive
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@x1101 I've always found "pragmatic" as used in describing proprietary software use to be misleading. We need another word for that.
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@yamatt In our (dot com) case, a young lad calmly came out of the server room & said 'There's a flashing red light on that big black thing'.
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@bkuhn ack, but Tech industry in this area is small enough that if I want to work in tech, which I do, I dont really have a chioce. 1/2
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@yamatt I think they should build in a click-noise generating device myself. Keep up a long standing HD tradition. :D
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@andyc wow, you have a very organised server room to just have one red flashing light to worry about ;)
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@windigo hahah, it's like how some governments want electric cars to have a speaker in them. SSDs need a speaker so you know they're broken.
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@x1101,everyone makes their own choices. FWIW,I decided in late 1990s I'd leave technology industry rather than write/support proprietary sw
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@yamatt lol, I heard about the "silent killer" effect that electric cars have. Two birds with one stone, IMO... ;)
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@bkuhn thats a bit more than I am willing to do. But I can say I will *not* write non-free software. (Not that I write much software anyway)
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@fontana It's not paranoia if they are actually out to kill you.
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