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Good article from @laforge: Why do self-respecting hackers use #Gmail & Co? http://is.gd/73lbRg !autonomous !fsfe
- Fabian Rodriguez and Michael V. Antosha like this.
- Psychedelic Squid (identi.ca side), Romain Gauthier and Benjamin Danon repeated this.
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I agree w/ @laforge http://is.gd/73lbRg "Why do self-respecting hackers use #Google #Gmail?"I wish he'd mentioned it's proprietary sw, too.
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@bkuhn Well, there has never been any doubt about gmail being proprietary sw. strikes me as obvious, but maybe not all readers.
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@laforge, I think some people,even hackers, don't realize #Gmail downloads proprietary programs in #Javascript to run locally on the client.
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@bkuhn you mean like almost every website today? ;) when I use Thunderbird as a client Gmail doesn't download anything.
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@marjoleink, I was using #Gmail to refer primarily to the Gmail Javascript application in the browser. Is there a better name for it?
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@bkuhn what kind of programs would that be then?
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@marjoleink,I've #NoScript plugin on by default;I *rarely* permit #Javascript. Most sites function well enough to get relevant info (so far)
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@bkjun Other than the javascript issue does gmail compromise freedom elsewhere?
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@bkuhn Other than the javascript issue does gmail compromise freedom elsewhere?
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@sandersch, I'm not completely sure I understand your question. (Pet peeve: if you have chars left over, give more context in your dent).
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@bkuhn from the programmer's point of view, of course ;)
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@kajarii, it's a proprietary network service, so !autonomous issues apply w/ #Gmail server-side. @laforge raised many important issues too.
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@bkuhn technically it may be a 'client' but it runs in the browser. Their HTML interface uses much less JavaScript though.
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@bkuhn Do you know of any email services which are more free. Or should I just run my own when I move and lose my isp mail
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@marjoleink, so you are saying I should call the web application parts of #Gmail: "The Gmail Web Application"? Quite a long name. Shorter?
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@kajarii the JavaScript issue is a non-issue if you use a local client like Thunderbird
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@kajarii,I run my own mail server,but not on my home computers anymore;I use a VPS now,which is !problematic but cheaper than more bandwidth
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@bkuhn gmail app perhaps?
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@bkuhn Gmail web UI? I rarely touch it anyway, because I dislike it. I like the *service* though, especially when used with !Thunderbird
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@bkuhn or, if context allows "the app"
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@marjoleink true I hate web mail anyway so I use fetchmail and a cron job usually. Or mutt on the laptop directly
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@bkuhn read it in contexts. You said Gmail downloads proprietary sw to the pc thru JS. I was wondering what sw? Not defending Google tho ;-)
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@kajarii you could use any local client with IMAP (or even POP3) support as long as it supports a secure connection
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@sandersch, #Javascript is sw. #Gmail Application downloads it & runs it on VM in web browser. (I do use in-context, ? still was ambiguous).
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@bkuhn what do you mean by 'runs it on VM'? are you saying Google's JavaScript is fundamentally different from JS that runs in a browser?
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@bkuhn and sometimes not even in the browser, iirc v8 runs outside of chrome
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@marjoleink,perhaps you didn't know,but browsers have VM in them that runs any #Javascript encountered. That's my point: it's just software!
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@bkuhn I disagree about being ambiguous. But does Google do this in Chrome or all browsers?
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@bkuhn on the topic of js, did you know that the original designer wanted it to be lisp? It was supposed to be(maybe is internally) but !ns
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@bkuhn said that "looks like java" was a requirement
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@bkuhn browsers run JavaScript, they have an engine for that - that's how it always worked. I've never heard that being called a 'VM'.
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@sandersch, I'm not aware of any browsers that support #Javascript that don't work this way. Are you? I can't imagine another way it'd work.
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@bkuhn I see that question wad answered already. Nevermind.
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@bkuhn what else would it be than software? of course it is. What's your point?
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@marjoleink, that "engine" you refer to of course has to be a Turing Complete Virtual Machine. What else would it be?
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@bkuhn would noscript protect against this you think?
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@marjoleink, I thought my point was obvious: it's software, it's distributed to the user. All the usual issues of proprietary / !FaiF apply.
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@sandersch, what #NoScript does (in default config) is makes sure no #Javascript runs w/out user explicitly permitting it. It's a watchdog.
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@bkuhn of course - that's why I asked how it is different from any other webmail UI that uses JavaScript?
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@marjoleink, it's different perhaps w/ regard to its license. I'd suspect #RoundCube's #Javascript is !FaiF -licensed. Isn't it?
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@bkuhn Roundcube is an application, not a service. that's a big difference.
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@bkuhn but what about the HTML of websites? what they serve to teh browser
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@marjoleink, you're conflating issues. We established the #Gmail #Javascript is an application, used in conjunction w/ #Google services.
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@bkuhn but what about the HTML of websites? what they serve to the browser is a combination of both + CSS, all interpreted by the browser
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@marjoleink,those are *documents*,not software. HTML/CSS aren't Turing Complete & you can't write programs in them. Such distinctions matter
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@bkuhn no Gmail's JavaScript is *part* of an application. other parts are HTML and CSS, and the parts that run on the server
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@bkuhn they are still software - just not programs.
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@marjoleink, from a scientific perspective, HTML/CSS are input/output of a #Javascript program. I know it doesn't feel that way.
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@bkuhn they are also equally 'protected' by copyright and licenses apply to them - JavaScript is *not* different in that respect
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@marjoleink,I think you may want to consult a dictionary for the definition of software. I just checked a few & they define it as "programs"
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@bkuhn exactly. I can make a very pretty paper in !latex but I can *NOT* write an 8086 emulator in it
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@bkuhn HTML/CSS *may* be processed by JavaScript but they don't have to be; you need HTML in the first place to even load JavaScript
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@marjoleink, copyright is a blunt legal instrument, applied to various different types of works. That's one of the problems w/ © generally.
Kat Walsh likes this. -
@bkuhn well I disagree. HTML and CSS are software, too - but not programs. Defining software as only programs is too narrow
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@bkuhn yes I know of teh problems of copyright - but it applies *equally* to HTML, CSS and JavaScript as part of an application
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@marjoleink,that may be true,but it doesn't change nature of what software is,what documents are& considering licensing moral implications
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@marjoleink, if you're going to disagree with the dictionary definitions of the terms we're using, I am not sure this debate can be useful.☺
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@bkuhn we agree there then because I don't think it's useful at all to treat the different parts of an application differently like you do
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@marjoleink,where we're likely in agreement: I agree there can be documents that are functional works & ∴ necessarily must be !FaiF licensed
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@ggoes @marjoleink yes that's the main problem. I'll probably run my own server then.
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@grote further, http://dataliberation.org. #gmail
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@bkuhn Google Webmail?
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@bkuhn I too agree. But I am yet to find a group of people who can team up and spend on a server. Do you any such community?
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@vu3rdd, Usually, groups of friends in the same geographical area get together to do this. It's probably best option if VPS isn't one.
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@bkuhn Thanks. I will try to see if some of my friends are interested.
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@grote practical reason i haven't seen mentioned here: some businesses have restrictive firewalls that don't play nice with webhost webmail
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