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@tmp: debian is not as easy because you have to check nonfree parts....trisquel does that for you
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@tmp: It would promote the nonfree distros and people might follow them thinking they are really free.
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@quiliro !FSF promotes #distros by explicitly stating "...based off of #Debian & #Ubuntu " By this logic, !Debian = no. !Debian based =yes
Benoit Mortier likes this. -
@quiliro Yeah, not adding the nonfree repository is a LOT of trouble. /sarcasm http://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html#Debian
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@joaormatos: It's not a lot a of trouble. It's much better for distinguishing a free distro from a nonfre #distro . No promotion of nonfree.
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@quiliro Debian is a completely Free distro. I think you mean to say Debian is not an anti-nonfree distro.
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@quiliro Some sort of "This package is not libre, infringes on your freedoms and is not part of Debian do you wish to continue Y/N?" on apt.
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@quiliro If you mirror everything except the nonfree and contrib repositories, you will get zero unresolved dependencies.
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@trashheap me too! And we should be specific, it's the contrib and non-free repositories that cause the issue with FSF.
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@trashheap One of the big issues is that even though they give lip service to "nonfree not being part of the distro"
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@trashheap I personally haven't found a single difference between free and nonfree. same repos, same speeds.....
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@joaormatos: @trashheap: It is not only a question of free software. It is a question of of promotion of #freedom !Debian is ambivalent
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@tekk See here http://identi.ca/notice/79748224 I would think this would be good for making Debian's policy more explicit.
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@trashheap it still has the same problem. they SAY that it's not part of the debian system, but then they provide it. I'd have less issue
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@trashheap if they stopped that hypocrisy
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@tekk Exactly! They should buy new servers just for nonfree so that those icky nonfree bits are physically separate from the rest! /s
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@joaormatos or implement my suggestion and stop saying that nonfree isn't a part of the distribution ;D
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@joaormatos especially when (iirc) it's actually part of the packaging rules that they have to be able to support this nonfree
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@tekk Debian Project <> Debian Distribution
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@joaormatos saying that they're part of the !debian PROJECT but not the !debian DISTRIBUTION just seems to be trying to weasel out of it imo
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@tekk Debian Project <- organization Debian, nonfree, contrib <- things made by and hosted by the organization
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@tekk They are separate things provided by the same organization. They took a political stance for Freedom by making the separation.
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@joaormatos I don't know a ton of !debian history, but iirc the fsf gave them quite a bit of money in the 90s to make sure that the distro
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@joaormatos err, with the understanding that the distro was fully free. It kinda seems to be as a way of wiggling out of the commitment
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@joaormatos "see? our distribution is fully free"
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@tekk Actually, Debian was not *completely* Free until Squeeze. I don't know a lot of history before Lenny either, so I can't say.
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@joaormatos wrong. debian was nonfree with etch and lenny, but that's it. kernel blobs didn't start until 2004
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@joaormatos restricting ourselves to only main, of course
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@tekk And that was because they followed upstream Linux into the trap, right?
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@tekk ever heard of double-thinking? :-)
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@tekk In any case, criticism of nonfree is complaining they didn't throw a hurdle towards their users.
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@joaormatos basically. wasn't the last time too. there was nonfree code in glx for YEARS that they knew about, but refused to move it from
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@lxoliva of course not :P
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@tekk nonfree would just emerge outside their control like debian-multimedia did if they shunned the idea.
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@joaormatos ......yes, that is the exact point of it.
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@lxoliva yeah, that's the fundamental difference. keeps us from resolving a lot of this stuff satisfactorily
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@joaormatos okay? now at least it's out of debian
Kete Foy likes this. -
@tekk err... my investigation shows non-Free blobs in Linux since 2.0, back in 1996
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@joaormatos In other news: identi.ca is now officially IRC with message size constraints.
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@tekk So non-free simply needs to be hosted by a third party?
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@lxoliva really? okay, maybe it has been nonfree for a while. I have no idea how I got 2004 then
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@trashheap no. the idea is to slowly push nonfree into more obscurity until it's no longer used, wean people off it if you will
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@trashheap the overarching goal being that people only use free software.That's what I think at least.
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@lxoliva Until hardware vendors get on board with providing specs to the kernel team. These goals are at least in tension.
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@trashheap help such hw vendors keep and make more victims, or help *users* keep or conquer *freedom*. the tension kills me ;-)
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@tekk nonfree doesn't increase non-free software usage, it just reduces the time users have to waste to get it.
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@tekk nonfree disappearing while it's still needed will only push users out of Debian and into distros that strongly embrace nfoss
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@tekk I think nonfree is the best compromise between the fact tat some people need nfoss, and the fact that it's undesirable.
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@joaormatos that's a pretty ridiculous argument. If it were true EVERYONE would still smoke
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@joaormatos really though, I can't think of a case where you actually NEED #nonfree to run your computer
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@tekk because YOUR hardware doesn't require packages from nonfree to function. Not everyone is so lucky.
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@tekk The binary blobs in mainline Linux aren't there exactly for kicks and giggles.
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@joaormatos correct me if I'm wrong, but video cards still implement vesa, which I'm pretty sure is good enough for non gamers
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@joaormatos ethernet cards are universally supported, afaict. only annoying bit is(possibly) wireless, but even then you have an eth card
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@joaormatos and usb wireless nics are pretty cheap, supposedly(hoping to pick up an atheros one some time)
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@tekk So, you're saying "you can never use that hardware" is a better answer than presenting the choice to the user?
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@tekk For a definition of "good enough".
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@joaormatos uhh.....no. Does !linux development stop the second that debian goes free?
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@joaormatos 99% of your users are just going to want firefox/chromium, thunderbird/evolution, and maybe libreoffice. none are very gfx heavy
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@joaormatos and even in that case you're good with just about all 2d games.
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@tekk The prospect of some hardware being supported some day really helps those that need it in the present...
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@tekk I didn't know I didn't smoke because tobbaco was made unavailable. I always thought it was because I chose not to.
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@joaormatos I mean in general. tightening up who CAN get cigarettes has had a major impact on usage.
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@joaormatos except I refuted this pretty well with the one caveat of wireless cards
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@joaormatos and even then I pointed out that wireless cards aren't strictly needed for usage ;)
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@tekk Most is not all. The users that want to use those applications will not bother to install proprietary drivers from nonfree.
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@tekk There is not 2d acceleration available for all hardware in Free Software.
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@joaormatos as someone who has used a bunch of 2d games with vesa, I can tell you that you usually don't need it.
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@joaormatos the only people I can think of who really need 3d accel are openarena, etc. addicts. but in that case teeworlds isn't too bad
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@tekk Also, Blender. Again, Debian users will have exactly what you say unless they explicitly chose to add nonfree.
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@tekk For your definition of usage. The choice to use ethernet is not always available. Your use case is not everyone's.
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@joaormatos where I also offered the fact that usb wlan cards are very very cheap
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@tekk Case in point: networking in my University's campus. You can't assume the user can afford new hardware or a home Internet service.
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@tekk Buying a new NIC to avoid nfoss is an option. Emphasis on option.
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@tekk nonfree doesn't make Debian any more difficult for those who want a purely foss operating system.
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@joaormatos however it's still a weasely way of being able to say that the distro is free when it basically isn't
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@joaormatos I definitely hope I'm never as poor as a student as you are then, ath usb is going for $12 on amazon.
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@tekk Is it that hard to understand that nonfree is not a part of Debian? If you mirror main, you have the whole distro, and it's Free.
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@joaormatos nonfree and contrib are additions to the distro. They depend on Debian, but Debian does not depend on them.
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@tekk I always carry a spare usb WNIC in my backpack. I just don't assume everyone else can do the same.
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@joaormatos we've been going around circles with this for days now. for all intents and purposes nonfree *IS* part of debian, as is contrib
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@tekk They're as much a part of Debian as coke and fries are a part of a Big Mac, to use a tasteless analogy.
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@tekk The one difference being that you can use the coke and fries on their own.
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@joaormatos extra points for the pun
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@joaormatos yes, I'm aware that you can use them on their own, in fact I'm running debian wheezy right now....
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@joaormatos but the fact is that debian is promoting nonfree software, intentionally or not. now if you'll excuse me
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@jaormatos I need to go pray to a gnu sticker :P
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@tekk Oh, for the love of Emacs, not religious analogies!
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@tekk i knew *you* could be funny #gnusticker
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@laurelrusswurm I got the idea when I looked to the side and saw my #gnusticker on my whiteboard :P
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@laurelrusswurm nope, debian is the original faif by bolicy distro, but it doesn't fit the requirements anymore :P
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@joaormatos it was a joke actually. though I am a member of the church of emacs
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@tekk I know :) (I meant to say religious allusions, not analogies.)
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@joaormatos ah okay :)
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@joaormatos why identica is awesome: debate goes on for like 2 days, ends in :)s and follows
João Ricardo Matos likes this. -
@tekk i just realized my only GNUsticker is on my writing laptop ... gonna need a teeny one for the netbook which is almost full
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@tekk what happened (in 140 characters or less... i have to get back to learning Sigil ... who me, procrastinate?)
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@laurelrusswurm just an argument over whether debian is !faif or not :)
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@laurelrusswurm I have one on my laptop, one on my whiteboard. I need a fresh set. had an fsf one on my old laptop too
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@tekk my old GNU sticker pre-dates me actually understanding FaiF :)
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@laurelrusswurm heh, my understanding of !faif pre-dates me knowing what the animal gnu is :P
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@laurelrusswurm at a work meeting my fellow apple-loving colleagues stuck a 'mattel' sticker on my eee pc when I wasn't looking :)
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@mcnalu that's actually kind of funny :)
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@mcnalu most stickers come off fairly easily when freshly pressed
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@laurelrusswurm it was, I found it very funny and left the sticker on to their slight annoyance. Still there today.
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@laurelrusswurm I've been wanting one, too, but didn't want to fork out ten dollars for a pack of stickers. I miss the festival's free ones.
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@kete there is a rumour there may be another Ontario LinuxFest... if it happens i'll be looking for free stickers :)
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@laurelrusswurm I need to hope for one in #RedHatCity and someone to take me :P
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@tekk whether RedHatCity means the vatican or new jersey, isn't there public transit?
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@laurelrusswurm raleigh, where redhat world hq is :P. and I'm a bit too far from it for public transport
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@laurelrusswurm in fact, the closest thing to public transport we have here is the taxis at bars to take drunk people home
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@tekk Town I grew up in is similar. With a fancy monument to all the kids killed driving drunk #nopublictransit #stupidpoliticians
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@laurelrusswurm well it's cheaper long term, obv.
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@laurelrusswurm what did the monument look like, a giant bottle of beer?
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