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@gomerx Seems you may be right. GNOME might be moving 80% to the internet based on ds2011 discussion.
Monday, 15-Aug-11 00:42:22 UTC from web-
@kaz RT @rikkikite: Linus Torvalds would like to see a GNOME fork http://t.co/b2eETj2 And, he's not the only one. #Linux #GNOME by @sjvn
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I wrote a blog post on "living in the past", !GNOME 3, and the problems of admonishing those who propose changes. http://ur1.ca/4uqmg
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@bkuhn Linus wants wobbly windows. You read that wrong.
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@bkuhn That is the most polite way of saying STFU I've ever read. A masterpiece.
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@bkuhn sawfish 4life
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@bkuhn The funny thing about !gnome 3 is that it's more like Awesome and other stripped-down setups than it is like Gnome 2
Jason F. McBrayer and Richard Fontana like this. -
@bkuhn I'm a "command-line geek" as well, but I'm really liking !gnome 3
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@bkuhn I can't be much of a command-line geek when my keyboard stops working!!!
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@bkuhn I too was disappointed with the keyboard possibilities for !gnome 3 until I read the documentation ;) http://bit.ly/m4XQGW
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@trashbird1240 Yep. I'd like to see it get an auto-tiling mode, and more drag-to-resize-and-fit options, too.
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@bkuhn I just read Linus' screed about !Gnome 3: he needs to read the docs, or use gnome-tweak-tool (which can put icons on the desktop) :)
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@jfm Perhaps an extension is the answer; I'd like tiling and would use it if I didn't have to use the mouse
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@johnnynull That was shocking: I don't!
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@bkuhn That's a fair response to those who are bashing purely because of changes, but there are definitely some genuine complaints.
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@bkuhn Most annoyingly, that there is no way to reach "power off" in the menu without holding Alt (and no way to know that that's needed).
Andy C and Hilton Garcia Fernandes like this. -
@psquid Have a look at the "Alternative Status Menu" extension doodad.
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@seawolf The point is, if extensions are needed to fix core parts of the DE, something's wrong.
Clacke Moved to Unlimited likes this. -
@psquid Plus One. The extension needs more functionality, too. The extension needs extending.
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@psquid I push the power button on my machine: it's what I call a "hardware extension." Is it really that hard to press Alt?
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@marjoleink Surprise: he didn't even invoke the rule of least surprise
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@trashbird1240 No, but there is no way to know that you have to hold Alt - it doesn't have any "hold Alt for extra options" tooltip or such.
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@sazius Inability to change themes without an external tool isn't a problem to you? (Ignore this if they've since fixed that one.)
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Clacke Moved to Unlimited likes this.
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@bkuhn Thank you for the wonderful discussion in the same context Linus Torvalds brought up in looking at GNOME 3.
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@fontana Here I thought the way that works for you was the right way, apparently I was wrong. ;)
Dvd Mrsdn likes this. -
@johnnynull That's how I launch most things. Then again, I do use #Awesome.
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@bkuhn Have you tried Gnome 3?
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@gomerx yes, me too, or in other activities.
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@fabsh The million € question.
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@marjoleink Surprise: he didn't even invoke the rule of least surprise
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@gomerx !Gnome 3 encourages that
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@bkuhn I agree, with one exception, wably windows are amazing, and feel much more natural (for me anyway).
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@bkuhn Or that change is accepted when those who won't change die off (max planck: science advances one funeral at a time)
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@zoowar However, in this case change is only better if you use a tablet or buy into the ChromiumOS model of the future.
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@sazius Where? Do you refer to the much-scorned Gnome3 and Unity?
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@g0tt, actually, I just reread his comments & still think it's ambiguous whether he wants them or not. My main points are still same, though
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@bkuhn I'd be very interested in your setup and opinion once you've used it for a bit.
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@psquid I have been either doing 'shutdown -h now' or logging out and shutting down from the login screen. This tip will save me 5s/day! ;-)
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@clacke Hey! Approved your erm, connection request on friendika. How you doing?
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@marjoleink The region doesnt have a culture of western style democracy,will be interesting to see what form of govn theyill have afterwards
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@marjoleink Yep. Nothing to do with K9. Hope I didn't put it across as if.
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@trashbird1240 Same here. My #terminator windows still look the same, alt-tab still sorta works, I don't see what the big fuss is about. :-)
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@bkuhn The fact that *you* live in the past doesn't mean other people do. There are things in the present that do suck, like GNOME 3.
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@bkuhn new != better. If you haven't tried GNOME 3 you cannot say if it's a step forward. And GNOME developers are ignoring many complaints.
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@felipec You can claim any piece of software to suck if you want to.
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@bkuhn please, stop flaming. :)
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@muep Irrelevant. The point is only by trying something you can have some idea about the validity of the criticism. Otherwise it's baseless.
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@bkuhn That doesn't make it true. See this thread for an example of how they ignore the complaints of famous devs: http://goo.gl/qUx7m
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@felipec, IMO,main lesson of that thread is that "rudeness begets rudeness" on *both* sides of discussion;One conversation isn't definitive.
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@bkuhn Who cares about rudeness? Don't they care about the quality of their software? Don't switch the topic; they ignore feedback.
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@felipec, I care about how people treat each other. Often, neither side hears each other when level of discourse descends into rudeness.
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@felipec,I'm not surprised no one hears each other in fora where discourse has descended to insults,but such discussion is never dispositive
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@bkuhn So they only listen to complaints when they are nice. On LKML people care about what you say, not how nice you are.
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@bkuhn Oh yes, it's possible, efficient, and happens all the time in LKML. You should see how Linus bashes developers, like with ARM devs.
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@felipec,Linus' treatment of people, IMO,shouldn't be tolerated. It's sad for the !Linux community that it's become a twisted badge of honor
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@bkuhn That's *your* opinion. And IMO you are wrong. It works, Linux is great sw. GNOME method of being nice doesn't work.
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@felipec, it's a simple human interaction truth that those who ask nicely for something are more likely to get it than those who ask rudely.
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@bkuhn There's nothing dysfunctional about it. Linux is the greatest software project in history. http://goo.gl/UWX34
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@bkuhn No. I said great, not perfect. You can't compare the success of Linux, which runs *everywhere* to GNOME, who is used by very few ppl.
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@bkuhn No, it's not. Where is your reference? The most efficient way to convey the message "this is stupid, is to say "this is stupid".
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@bkuhn Stop with the red herring of politeness. They ignore negative feedback. Period.
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@marjoleink So true!
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@felipec,It's not a red herring: all your examples of ignored feedback have been given in ways that are couched like attacks (on both sides)
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@felipec, if you cannot admit that ∃ some dysfunctional parts of your own community, I can't take seriously your criticisms of others.
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@felipec,it's entirely possible !Linux can be great sw,even the greatest software project in history,& still have serious community problems
Clacke Moved to Unlimited likes this. -
@felipec, http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201103/how-take-feedback is one recent main stream article that's worth reading on issue.
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@bkuhn Dysfunctional according to what metric? Provide me with a study that supports your view that bluntness is *always* wrong.
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@bkuhn That article is an opinion. Nowhere there is an absolute truth being described.
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@bkuhn It is *possible*, yes, but what evidence do you have? You don't have any, only opinions.
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@felipec,bluntness & rudeness/attacking are different. IMO some "feedback" is just a veiled attack. e.g.: telling someone: "you're a idiot".
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@bkuhn *Some*, yes. How many? 50%, 10%, 1%? From my point of view *many* of the important issues will not be fixed.
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@felipec,it comes down to what the "feedback giver" wants;They want !GNOME to change? If so, is insulting developers best way to get change?
Adhidarma Hadiwinoto likes this. -
@bkuhn Like; "I didn't hear any complaints when I punched him in the face", then, "oh, that? well, he was mean". A complaint is a complaint.
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@bkuhn Look at this. http://goo.gl/l85bv. That's the blunt criticism that is ignored. Not personal attacks.
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@bkuhn No, they are switching away from GNOME. *If* GNOME developers want to improve their sw, they have the feedback, or they can ignore.
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@sazius Indeed, but one shouldn't say one method is wrong with absolute certainty, and then ignore the message.
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@felipec, obviously I've read that, given I blogged in response. IMO, comparing someone's work to fecal matter goes beyond blunt into rude.
Clacke Moved to Unlimited likes this. -
@prometoys, I apologize! I've a habit of overzealous use of '!' (group) when '#' (tag) is more appropriate. A bad habit I'm working to end!
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@bkuhn no prob, just thought somebody should mention it :)
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@marxistvegan But I am not claiming absolute certainty that my claim is true. He is.
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@bkuhn It's better to listen to the user base before they feel compelled to complain.
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@muep The reverse is true too. You can claim any sw good if you want to.
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@zoowar Thank you for saying that. ^_^
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@felipec i think in this case it will be a matter of opinion...however I would suggest seeing productivity in environme…
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@bkuhn don't worry too much, I have the same issue
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@sazius "Management by perkele" is the best thing I've read all day
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@bkuhn Actually, if you didn't use the group feature so generously I'd often miss a lot of your discussions, which are generally interesting
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@bkuhn what if my goal is to sabotage a competitor? Doesnt it make sense to ask them rudely for something that is in their best interest?
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@bkuhn Can I count of them acting irrationally human and turning away from a good idea just because I was rude to them?
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@patrickniedzielski I love/hate your harmonica playing is meaningless. I love/hate your harmonica playing because <...> is meaningful.
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@zoowar Right, arguments such as those for or against any softawre should be weighted not on the reaction, but the cause for the reaction.
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@zoowar Agreed. Sometimes even a sucky program can be invaluable to someone at the same time.
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@marxistvegan Our opinions don't matter. The feedback is there. GNOME can use it, or throw ad hominem attacks back. They chose the latter.
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@jargon I didn't say it was stripped down; I said it was a good replacement for stripped down wms. Have you used !gnome 3 lately?
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@sazius Haha, amazingly I have never heard that expression, but "management by perkele" is a wonderfully powerful phrase!
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@clacke NO, please don't go.
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@sandersch it's not going, it's really no different than a remote statusnet instance.
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@sandersch I appreciate your support, but moving is not equal to disconnecting. <3 Gradually connecting to people from there and evaluating.
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@Claes Wallin @sandersch Still here, see?! :-)
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@jargon It all depends on what you want: I want simple window management and not a lot of crap on the screen; !gnome 3 gives me that
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@jargon I don't know who is who, but things are working pretty darn well for me with !gnome 3 #dude_its_made_of_easy
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