Conversation
Notices
-
@fontana Macs @ OSCON = mostly developers running OSX; PCs @ LinuxCon = mostly businesspeople running Windows.
Monday, 22-Aug-11 16:20:07 UTC from web-
I did not realize @fabsh happened to have a birthday yesterday.
-
@alpacaherder Yep. August 20, 1983.
-
@fabsh Oh, we missed your b-day? I don't see b-days on the new forums. Well, happy belated.
-
@nybill Thanks. Yeah, it was yesterday. Got most wishes on G+ actually. :)
-
@fabsh Alles Gute nachträglich ;)
-
@fabsh Happy belated B-day oh you so young
-
@fabsh happy birthday little-bit-older outlaw :þ
-
@fabsh, are you saying the #fabalanche has moved to #GooglePlus. This is truly a sign of the proprietary network services apocalypse.
-
@bkuhn I, too, am saddened by the passing of the #fabalanche and the corresponding portents. Cc @fabsh
-
-
@reality it's alive enough for me. We're just consuming its corpse apparently
-
@tekk Scandalous.
-
-
@fontana I do have friends who say that they won't run PHP on their servers. FAIF web services don't need to win, though. Just need to exist
-
@alpacaherder Shit, I spotted this on Friday and thought 'I won't forget to say happy birthday'. Then in all the madness I did. Sorry.
-
@methoddan It happens.
-
@bkuhn I wrote a long blogpost on this: http://sixgun.org/blog/2011/google-plus-vs-identica
-
@bkuhn IMO it is not so much a software freedom issue per see as an issue with identica needing an UI makeover for > year now....
-
@fabsh, I get your point even though I disagree w/ it. Putting good UIs above software freedom is always tempting, but !disturbing IMO.
-
@fabsh, main problem we now have is that the "social network jump" to #GooglePlus is specifically enticing !FaiF Software celebrities :-/
-
@bkuhn I know. We had this discussion a few times before, I just have different priorities than you.
-
@bkuhn Yeah. I've held on to identica as long as possible but they have sat still for too long. This is a fast-moving area....
Andy C likes this. -
@fabsh,my worry: if people like you—who are otherwise very supportive of FaiF—can be so easily wooed away,I fear software freedom is doomed.
-
@fabsh,similar situation: many #OpenSource people pefer Apple b/c they're "easier". Proprietary just needs to be slightly better to beat us☹
-
@bkuhn some poeple (I forget where I read this) prefer Apple b/c with a free OS they'd waste too much time tinkering (enjoying the freedom)
-
@bkuhn most people lazy, thats just the truth. until we can do everything non-free software can do (and inter-operate with it) we are hosed
-
@fontana, my guess is that @copiesofcopies is right on this: I bet there was more #Windows than you realized at !LinuxCon.
-
@fontana Uh-huh. :)
-
@bkuhn Yep. Free software needs to be better than proprietary software. Freedom alone isn't enough.
reality likes this. -
@bkuhn Believe me, I wasn't at all easily wooed away. This was brewing for over a year.
-
@bkuhn I could've told you months ago that identica would be in trouble as soon as something better came along and/or Google launched sth.
-
@bkuhn FAIF isn't doomed per se. Probably is doomed until we improve our community organizing. Luckily there's some good work on that!
Christopher Allan Webber likes this. -
@fabsh not that it matters at all, but you are ~month older than me.
-
@copiesofcopies The important question though is less what OS was in use but what apps were being used on it.
-
@fontana How closely did you look @ the OS? I run GNU/Linux on mine. (Like at #libreplanet) Admittedly, I'm no doubt a minority.
-
@openhatchery (I didn't mean for this last @openhatchery dent to be on its account; it's my personal opinion!)
-
♻ @fontana: @bkuhn #GooglePlus is the medium of the #Establishment. Even you are there by virtue of refusing to be there.
-
@webmink,spoken like someone who abandoned software freedom at operating system level for #Apple's shiny things. I'm disappointed you did so
Andy C likes this. -
@bkuhn Can you actually see my desk from there, or is this the just arbitrary judgementalism that scares most citizens away from FOSS?
Jason Riedy likes this. -
@webmink I'm just imagining you with an old sun workstation running openIndiana
-
@webmink you evil Apple fanboy! I bet you eat small children also.
-
-
@bkuhn Greetings from my Android netbook (today). Which I was using at OggCamp. But yes, I still use my Macs as well as all the others.
-
@webmink,I hope you'll make a commitment to software freedom soon. Do you have C&CS, BTW, for Apache-licensed parts of your Android netbook?
-
@webmink, anyway, IMO, an #OpenSource celebrity like yourself using a proprietary system at a conference sends a very !disturbing message.
-
This conversation reminds me of vegan t-shirt:"Yes, I'm a vegan. No, my shoes aren't leather. Yes, I get enough protein. Yes, I have a life"
Clacke Moved to Unlimited likes this. -
@bkuhn I am amazingly insulted, Bradley. Even if it was any of your business, your lack of understanding and respect is breathtaking.
-
-
@bkuhn I just decided I'm not.
-
@bkuhn i get annoyed by ppl who call themselves 'vegan' and eat fish and wear leather. but consider bittman's position, 'flexitarian'
-
@bkuhn or iow you get benefits by eating vegetarian only some of the time, and it's certainly better than never eating veggie at all
-
@webmink, I'm sorry you're insulted. To be clear, my point is: you set a bad example & using proprietary software publicly legitimizes it.
Andy C likes this. -
@bkuhn applied to free sw, then, a little better than none. altho a free sw person proudly wielding a mac is as silly as PETA chair in fur
sazius (moved to status.saz.im) likes this. -
@webmink,I've no respect for proprietary software itself. I do respect ppl who are helpless in their use of it,but I don't think you're that
-
@mairin, I admit I'm holding @webmink to a higher standard (he believes unfairly, I think) b/c he's an #OpenSource celebrity.
-
@bkuhn My point is that software freedom starts where you are and not some place a fundamentalist tells you is kosher.
-
@mairin, for the average user, I think you're right. e.g. I'm hoping to get my father-in-law to switch to Firefox on Windows for this reason
-
@webmink,IMO those of us that fight for sw freedom have to set the highest of standards;Not doing so shows diff btw sw freedom & #OpenSource
-
@bkuhn So I present using LibreOffice and Firefox etc on a Mac to show there's a pathway out. You choose your message, I'll choose mine.
-
@webmink, I agree w/ philosophy of "meeting people where they are";But in #OpenSource, you're in a very different place from most ppl,though
-
@bkuhn Disagree. The faithful do not need converting.
-
@webmink, see earlier part of this thread & @kaz's keynote at !OSCON. We've had a lot of "proprietary drift", even among the "faithful".
Brian Wisti likes this. -
@bkuhn This is so reminiscent of a disciplinary talk with an evangelical pastor it's disturbing.
-
@webmink, it's possible I'm holding you to a higher standard than is fair. I've already admitted that. If I am, I apologize for that part.
-
@deejoe FWIW I freely admit to being imperfect :-)
-
@bkuhn The problem in this case is your standard, not my actions.
-
@bkuhn But I have already failed since I'm wasting time arguing with you about something I know you'll never agree.
-
@bkuhn However, this judgementalism - redolent of evangelical prurience - is a serious obstacle to software freedom, IMO.
-
@webmink I wonder how many people who use the trope "evangelism" have much experience of its religious referrent?
-
@webmink, I'm in agreement with you. We shouldn't waste our time arguing this. We both have important work do.
-
@deejoe FWIW I do have a great deal...
-
@deejoe Do note I am referring here to "evangelical" and not "evangelism", and doing so with precision.
-
@bkuhn Just curious: where does Ubuntu on a MBP sit on the proprietary drift spectrum?
-
@webmink I'm just wondering if some software evangelists are unfamiliar with the annoyance of being on the receiving end.
-
@MagicalBeaker got to card details twice before bork at Currys & Dixons; Shop locator totally broken. Possibly reserved a 32GB from PCW :)
-
@deejoe There is a style of evangelism that does not involve impact with a large black book...
-
@deejoe All depends on the example one is aiming to set :-)
-
@fontana, is it? Apple stands for everything the community is aiming at.
-
@webmink I prefer to set the example "kerning is important," and advocate for LaTeX/beamer presentations. ;)
Jason F. McBrayer likes this. -
@mairin that's what some of us call “open vegan”
-
@webmink are you suggesting that publicly using non-Free Software is not something software freedom activists should be concerned about?
-
@lxoliva Yes. Celebrate use of FOSS rather than criticising non-use. "Catch 'em doing something right".
-
@fontana, I'm sorry, but is this one of your trollish comments? :)
-
@webmink I'd rather achieve freedom, and that takes opposing the monsters and those who feed them
-
@webmink also, freedom takes constant vigilance. if we can't count on our friends to help us realize our mistakes...
-
-
@webmink as in, “Catch 'em doing something right, and don't mention the elephant in the room, nor the man behind the curtain” ?
-
@sandersch Thanks for the hint.
-
@lxoliva Not what I said.
-
@tychoish HA!
-
@webmink no problem always here to help. See a professional for counseling tho.
-
@windigo talking about something one believes in is not always preaching. Even if you don't agree.
-
@webmink hey I'm not on your side. I'm on my side and it's nice and quite over here. So don't come over here.
-
@sandersch Thank goodness; you'll not be attacking me then.
-
@sandersch Talking at someone about what you believe, and berating them for not feeling the same, is preaching in my eyes.
-
@webmink I reserve the right to attack anyone. And for no good reason too. B/c I believe on GNU freedom of speech. CC3.0
-
@sandersch I don't give a shit if you believe something. But as soon as you tell me what to believe, you can fuck off.
-
@windigo the GNU / FSF hardliners do more harm than good with their approach sometimes
-
@tychoish Beamer is made of rainbows and unicorn poop.
Jason Riedy likes this. -
@thistleweb I agree, and that sucks. I really do believe they have the right idea, but are going about it all wrong. :(
-
@windigo telling someone to believe something is not the same as trying to convince someone.
-
@sandersch I'm all for discussion, but some of the discussions around here border on personal attacks.
-
@windigo I agree with you 100% I've said it before, if someone tells you *What you should be doing* they do not have a clue what Freedom is
-
@dickturpin we're protecting your freedom but you have to call it GNU/Linux not just Linux
-
@thistleweb While I firmly believe the FSF and FSFE are the storm troopers of the FOSS community I'd still join FSFE if it was cheaper.
-
@dickturpin the arrogant preachy attitude on Identica just alienates people who are broadly on their side IMHO
-
@thistleweb Meh I wouldn't say I know anyone arrogant on Identi.ca there are some strong willed people.
-
@thistleweb The problem with the group we interact with on identi.ca is that it's very small compared to the total user base. People forget
-
@dickturpin Small, but by far the sexiest.
-
@reality True but is the kind of sex they practise that worries some folks. :-)
-
@sandersch Sir, you are attacking people personally - people that I respect. That is something I take very seriously.
-
@webmink from my POV, you're the one who claim to be on the same side. I don't claim sympathy for OSS's moral values
-
@sandersch sounds like a troll's rebuttle, it's easy to ignore or block people on identica thankfully, not exactly easy to influence people
-
@nybill the #ChimpPhone was engaged & went to voicemail
-
@thistleweb "please leave a message after 'oooh aaah'..."
-
-
@lxoliva The last person who said something like that to me was an exclusive Baptist who knew he was one of the 144,000
-
@thistleweb I just looked it up. No, I've never seen it. I can't remember the last time I saw something that was animated.
-
I'm fookin off to bed.
-
@dickturpin Night man.
-
@windigo Ha ha! The billy club. I know it. For the RMS talk I thought you packed it special. I thought, wow he doesn't like Troy! :D
-
-
@nybill Hah, nope - that's always in the car. Swords get you in trouble with customs at the border...
-
@bkuhn Apple's hardware runs Archlinux beautifully.
-
@thistleweb Ha, nice!
-
RT @mairin [...] a free sw person proudly wielding a mac is as silly as PETA chair in fur
-
@webmink so you label ethical criticism as religious fanaticism? how's the “OSSers are communists” working for you? ;-)
-
@bkuhn that's just another mistake of his ;-)
-
@lxoliva Passing public judgement on the reasoned & genuine ethical choices of others is hard to justify. Those who do are often religious.
-
@webmink how to justify the public betrayal of values you claim to espouse, the defense of the betrayal, and the criticism of its critics?
-
@webmink Microsofties, Applers, and Googlers have reasoned and genuine rationalizations for unethical behavior too; are they legitimate?
-
@lxoliva As individuals they're entitled to whatever thoughtful choices they make & must be respected for them. Corporations are not people.
-
@lxoliva and many people aren't aware of the problems/harm caused, sadly
-
@webmink Microsofties, Applers and Googlers aren't corporations either
-
@webmink you realize how much evil “respect[ing] *whatever* thoughtful choices they make” would require you to tolerate?
-
@lxoliva Exactly. When we're driven to condemn people, it is us and not them who have usually failed.
Christopher Allan Webber likes this. -
@webmink how about condemning choices? choosers'd feel attacked anyway, and ask the elephant in the room to not be mentioned
-
@lxoliva There are obviously boundaries. Mostly indistinct ones with shades of grey.
-
@webmink so your boundaries are different, and criticism to lax ones is bad, but to our criticism is ok?
-
@webmink or is criticism intolerable in general, except for criticism to criticism?
-
@webmink why don't you practice what you preach and refrain from criticizing attitudes you don't approve of?
-
@webmink or, to quote a friend of mine, “catch us doing something right” ;-)
-
@lxoliva I think the frame from which you operate differs as it's almost impossible to discuss with you without you attacking.
Clacke Moved to Unlimited likes this. -
@lxoliva Indeed, your provocation has made me fail. I apologise. And congratulations.
-
@webmink now, you're defending from an attack; so are we, and our freedoms are more important than your comfort promoting the attacker
-
@webmink hey, you criticized a friend of mine (for criticizing an attitude of yours); disapproval only ok when it's towards others?
-
@webmink if you haven't realized the contradiction in your stance, there's nothing to congratulate me about
-
@lxoliva I reject your characterisation.
-
@lxoliva Once again I reject your characterisation.
Jeff Has Moved likes this. -
@lxoliva Is this the five minute argument, or did you want to buy the full half hour?
Clacke Moved to Unlimited likes this. -
@webmink how did your criticism display respect for his thoughtful choice to criticize your public endorsement of proprietary software?
-
@lxoliva I reject your characterisation.
-
@webmink I just want you to realize how contradictory it is to be critical of others for their being critical (of anything)
-
@webmink ... that your anti-criticism preaching is a farse, or at least hypocritical, when you criticize others while at it
-
@lxoliva I reject your summary and characterisation so it's impossible to respond to you.
-
@lxoliva Do read back through what you have written and reflect, though.
-
@osamak You might want to check the phrasing of your previous dent :) There really is no community as such.
-
@usb333, there is a community. Maybe it's small, maybe we have different strategies but anyone that wishes software freedom is part of it.
-
@osamak You're missing the point. "Apple stands for everything the community is aiming at" I think you meant "against" instead of "for". :)
-
@bkuhn I once had same discussion with a vegetarian, said to the animal it doesn't matter whether u kill it for meat or leather
-
@lxoliva lmao
-
@lxoliva Brilliant.
-
All Identi.ca content and data are available under the