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@fontana IMHO the only concern in accepting no-strings-attached $ donation is becoming dependent on it => hostage of the donor
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This Saturday at 5PM, #Conservancy's Executive Director, @bkuhn, will be a keynote speaker at #OLF, #Ohio #Linux Fest: http://ur1.ca/512z5
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
I'm giving one of the keynotes at !OLF (Ohio !Linux Fest) this weekend (17:00 Saturday) about !autonomous #netservices: http://ur1.ca/512z5
Christopher Allan Webber likes this. -
@bkuhn Long may it continue.
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@gomerx Strictly speaking, binary blobs in the kernel might be proprietary in some cases, but I'm pretty sure Debian removed them in 6.
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@psquid Depends on what you mean by "binary blob." If you mean non-free firmware, there is none in Debian. 'binary blob' ~= firmware, IMO.
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@gomerx Some people consider the contrib and non-free repos part of Debian though, which makes the whole distro non-free.
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@gomerx Exactly. There _were_ non-free binary blobs in Debian, but you can hardly hold that against Debian as it exists now, since by ..
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@gomerx .. 6, they shipped the recently de-binary-blobbed kernel, removing even that problem.
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@fontana Hm, I think there's a lot of stuff that happens with debian-legal along these lines, but maybe not as much of a pre-approval QA?
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@gomerx Does Debian enable them by default? If not, I'd say anyone who says Debian contains non-free is wrong.
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@psquid Well, the term "binary blob" used to mean non-free driver. These were never in the kernel. The term has been misappropriated.
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Kat Walsh likes this.
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@gomerx Also, if repos are considered part of the distribution, that would make Trisquel non-free, since it can still use standard ..
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@gomerx .. Ubuntu repos and PPAs, both of which are completely capable of containing non-free.
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@psquid Non-free firmware is part of the kernel package & was part of Debian til it was split out. IMO it doesn't taint the kernel
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@psquid whereas trisquel does not.
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@gomerx But it did taint Debian, since Debian still shipped it. Past tense being significant there; they intentionally don't any more.
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@tekk I meant, if repos can taint the distro without being enabled by default, then even Trisquel would be tainted, so that argument ..
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@tekk .. doesn't really fly, as far as Im concerned.
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@tekk Uh, s/Im/I'm/
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@psquid that's not the argument. the argument is that debian *ITSELF* provides and supports nonfree, therefore is nonfree
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@tekk I thought Debian explicitly says they don't offer any support for stuff installed from non-free (beyond the packaging)?
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@psquid it's in the packaging rules for nonfree that they have to be able to support it
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@psquid they use a weird method to fix the cognitive dissonance, nonfree supported & packaged by debian project, but no distro
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@psquid the project handling such diverse things as the distribution and...uhh....the website for the distribution, yeah
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@psquid I can confirm that they are not enabled by default. (Installed squeeze recently.)
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@sazius however ubuntu does the same thing, or at least did until quite recently. I'd hardly call ubuntu a free distro therefore
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@sazius it would be wise to reconsider criterion
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@tekk Ubuntu kernel contains non-free blobs & suggests installing non-free drivers. Also pushes user to non-free web service (ubuntu one).
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@sazius forgot about that bit. take 9.10 and ignore kernel, still consider free?
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@sazius I consider debian free-by-default, but wouldn't say it is a fully free distro
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@tekk I don't see how the existence of non-free repo makes the whole of Debian non-free, even if you were using only main.
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@tekk 9.10 (ignoring kernel) is technically free AFAIK. However it does suggest installing non-free driver if it detects Nvidia e.g.
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@tekk OK, fair enough :) What "fully free" really means is then the next problem to debate :)
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@fontana DFSG-freeness of what goes into #Debian is thoroughly controlled by ftp-masters before acceptance
Christopher Allan Webber likes this. -
@fontana what's your argument for saying it's arbitrary? DFSG is not an algorithm, we have a team delegated to interpret and apply them
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@fontana So if lawyers aren't running the show it's "completely arbitrary"? #thisisatroll
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@sazius unless you go into arbitration
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@fontana that's not true, reasons are given for any single decision | although we should do a better job at indexing/publishing them
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(doing so is also part of something proposed by @bkuhn,i.e. maintaining an authoritative list of DFSG-free licenses, that would be useful)
P. J. McDermott likes this. -
@zack ... fully free debian sid box and i did nothing to it to make it so. Am I mistaken, should I leave debian? (Not doing that anyways.)
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@psquid They are not enabled by default. Some would argue they're still part of the distro, but that seems silly to me.
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@psquid Yes, they did at some point ship code that doesn't have source available. By DFSG that made it non-free.
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@gomerx I'd understand the argument if Debian had non-free by default or would suggest or endorse non-free stuff. But it doesn't.
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@sazius perfect sense. It gives you freedom from closed source as default but respects your decision if you want other stuff. GGG of FOSS
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@fontana That's good, although I'm not sure what those others are :) #cryptomemeoverload
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@sazius I believe you can file bugs against non-free packages in the same bug tracker as main. Still not endorsement to me.
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@gomerx I'm OK with it as long as it is clear that it is non-free and nobody is endorsing, recommending or pushing unaware users towards it.
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@sazius Debian probably has more the opposite problem. You'll never figure out how to enable the repos unless you ask someone.
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@gomerx Yeah. It's not hard, once you know, but there's no easy way to find out without searching around.
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@gomerx Well, a little effort is required so that you don't enable the EVIL non-free by accident :)
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@tekk with the double-thinking, one could even regard it as free distro, but non-free project with same name still problematic
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@psquid And occasionally you can get harassed if you ask the wrong people.
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@sazius We wouldn't want to accidentally enable evil. That would make a good movie, though.
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@gomerx isn't that basically the plot of every other action movie :)
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@sazius the Debian project endorses the non-Free stuff and insists it's good for users
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@pehjota they maintain and publish it, arguing it satisfies one of their top 2 priorities, users, as if in conflict with freedom
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I'm actually mildly concerned re: ohiolinux.org/conduct ;If I tell someone using proprietary sw that it's morally wrong, is that harassment?
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@bkuhn Someone bared their buttocks as part of Jono Bacon's keynote a few years back. I think you're covered.
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@bkuhn Only if you continue if they ask you to stop, afaik.
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@bkuhn I dont know, if you see me kick a puppy, and tell me its morally wrong, is that harassment? /cc @fontana #maybetrollish
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@fontana but proprietary SW harms humans, surely harming humans is worse than harming puppies #probablyatroll
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@bkuhn Bradley, the conduct policy does not prohibit anything you say against proprietary software.
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@lxoliva I see debian as a community where if someone is ready to maintain a package in can be there. It would wrong for me to forbid them.
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@lxoliva However, because many people are opposed to non-free software debian keeps them separate, which is a good compromise IMHO.
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@lxoliva To me it is only a problem if the default installation would propose installing non-free or promote it. Debian does not.
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@sazius can't stop someone from maintaining an unethical program elsewhere, but refusing to carry it would be taking an ethical stand
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@sazius that just goes to show the problem with Debian: it's not opposed to non-Free Software, which the Free Software movement is
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@lxoliva I noticed that the upcoming OpenBSD release offers as part of installation to update non-free firmware. Surprised.
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@fontana best responce ever
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@lxoliva Perhaps, but I think there is a difference between "insisting it's good for users" and "not opposing".
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@sazius sadly the Debian project holds the former opinion. that's how they conclude they need non-free for priority “users”
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@sazius if instead they realized software freedom is what's good for users, they'd drop the harmful non-free like a hot potato
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@sazius (which, again, wouldn't stop anyone else from maintaining non-free packages that worked on Debian GNU/Linux)
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@lxoliva Debian has in fact dropped potato already: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianPotato :)
Clacke Moved to Unlimited likes this. -
@lxoliva I wouldn't say providing what people might consider "a necessary evil" is the same as saying "this is good for you".
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@bkuhn how many times do you tell them? do you know them? (walk down the street telling everyone with an iphone/ipod/ipad? etc?)
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@bkuhn it says no discrimination based on "what operating system you use", so you can safely complain about it's proprietariness :)
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@bkuhn If you attack people for using proprietary software, that would be a problem.
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@bkuhn In other words, say what you want about the software, but don't use that as a put-down of the person.
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@patdavila Pat, all we are saying is don't use people's software choices as a reason to attack them.
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@bkuhn the way you talk about free software vs. proprietary software, it could be considered an ethnicity or religion. ;)
Richard Fontana likes this. -
@ahuka I know. I was kidding around. Couldn't resist
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@bkuhn only if you 'tell' them with a large stick...
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@fontana, Actually, Mr. #Troll, I recall saying it quite often, actually, to those who donate to #Conservancy. Many read my dents, BTW.
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@fontana ,BTW, don't forget: I once got fired before for telling funders their actions were immoral. My track record shows my non-corruption
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@fontana, I know of no non-profit that asks all its donors to take a test to see if all their actions are moral, do you? Please show me.
drew Roberts likes this. -
@fontana,I've never taken personal donations from anyone, IIRC. I was employed by proprietary sw companies in 1990s,but I worked hard for it
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@fontana,I'm sick of answering your frequent indictments of my, #Conservancy & #FSF's character. If you have accusations to make, make them.
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♻ @bkuhn: I once got fired before for telling funders their actions were immoral. My track record shows my non-corruption
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@fontana I'm curious; without strings attached, why should any non-profit ever reject any $ donation? I can't make sense of it
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@lxoliva because the trolls must troll :D
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@lxoliva imo seems positive, a step towards reparation
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@fontana I understand there may be “blood money” issues, but when the evil deed is done, accepting donation won't undo or endorse it
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@lxoliva on a semi-related topic, what is your opinion on religious 'charities'?
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@lxoliva I'm kinda stuck, all seem to have at least implicit strings attch'd, however some ppl really need the help...
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@tekk too many fake churches in .br for me to have an unbiased opinion, but I hope at least some religious charities are honest
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@tekk “here, take it, and if you do well, I may give you more” != “here, take it and do X”
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@tekk the only risk in the former is dependency; the latter may be ok or not depending on whether X is aligned with recipient or not
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@tekk in either case, I don't see that whatever else donor did, does or intends to do should matters
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@tekk what matters for a non-profit is advancing its stated mission; if $ donation can help, take it and use it well, methinks
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@lxoliva I agree, but my question was regarding orgs whose stated goal you strongly disagree w/ but support the wway of getting there
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@lxoliva handing out food, etc.
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@tekk I don't understand; are you asking whether I'd donate to such orgs, or whether they should accept my donations?
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@lxoliva even strings attached $ can be ok. purpose is to feed, clothe & house the poor. A says "here is $X, use it to feed the poor." Prob?
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@fontana Yes! Can you somehow take it all? Perhaps even better? ~;-) But be sure you can take it without being tainted.
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@fontana, IMO the character of an NPO comes from the collective characters of its Board of Directors & Staff. It's collective action.
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@zotz problem would only arise if purpose attached to $ is not aligned with org's mission, as I wrote before
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@lxoliva cool, i picked up on this thread late.
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