Conversation
Notices
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@laurelrusswurm no it's a clever protest post against the nc and nd licenses ;)
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@laurelrusswurm #NC = no-community, because others can’t ever professionalize, not even in little ways (accepting donations). No symmetry.
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@laurelrusswurm just a joke with loose mappings to personal opinions. #vaguejokes
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@arnebab @laurelrusswurm @mattl for example, GNU/Linux only started flourishing after Linux was re-released under a non-NC license
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@tekk does it refer back to a blog post, or do you just mean the referenced micro-blog post?
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@arnebab You are interjecting commerce into community. Although it is possible, it is certainly not necessary to human community.
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@lxoliva again, that is commerce. Community is for humans. Community does not require commerce.
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@laurelrusswurm I personally believe there are some interesting positive (self)restraints associated with community commerce.
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@mjjzf Yes, but community can exist quite happily outside of commerce.
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@laurelrusswurm That is entirely true. I just feel that there is a point in inviting commerce within/among the community.
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@laurelrusswurm you're spoiling the joke! anyhow, in a community, you give sth and you get sth in return, so... isn't that a trade? :-)
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@laurelrusswurm IMHO the important thing to question is why authors should be entitled to choose what power they'll have over others
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@laurelrusswurm Possibly, but not all choices are good choices? Anyway, *biggest* (but not only) community problem is interop (esp w/ SA)
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@laurelrusswurm Also, just because it shared the C, point of my joke was not assertion of Community == Commerce, was NC == No Community ;)
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@laurelrusswurm Also, I can't claim credit for NC = No Community joke, though I don't remember origin. I think I can for ND = No Dialogue :)
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@lxoliva authors have their choice of what to do with their work, just as audiences have their choice of what to read.
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@laurelrusswurm choice? what kinda creator are you giving people choice? they should be cast in irons & sued into bankruptcy to pay you ;P
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@laurelrusswurm this wishy washy liberal illusion of choice will hold you back among the only true professionals, the writing guilds lol
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@laurelrusswurm the trick is to make sure they avoid bankruptcy, so you can continue to sue them, at least they'll have reading material
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@cwebber people make choices. Not all are equal... but isn't that the point?
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@thistleweb grumble grumble grumble
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@laurelrusswurm if I don't get to decide on what device author writes, why should author decide on what device I can read it?
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@laurelrusswurm and that's just *one* on the unfair powers that © law grants authors over everyone else; YTF do societies grant them?
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@laurelrusswurm It's a point. The ability to make a choice *itself* doesn't benefit your community. Certain choices might help/hurt them.
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@lxoliva You decide on what food you will eat. Will you eat fresh, frozen or canned vegetables. Or none at all.
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@lxoliva If a book is locked to a specific device, you may choose not to read it.
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@laurelrusswurm sure I can decide that. I can also decide to challenge the legitimacy of locking it up.
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@cwebber It didn't come across as a joke, but as a pronouncement.
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@laurelrusswurm to keep with gastronomy, can you imagine a groceries shop prohibiting you from cooking food you got there in certain ways?
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@lxoliva the important thing to question is why you think readers should be entitled to dictate what choices authors make (not choice)
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@laurelrusswurm ... thinking they're entitled to it because they planted/raised the food? passing laws so they get it their way?
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@laurelrusswurm I think neither authors nor readers should have power over each other. that's why © is illegitimate and I fight it
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@laurelrusswurm © licensing, CC or not, is choosing which illegitimate powers over others you keep; I don't think anyone should have them
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@lxoliva First, authors have absolute power over what and how they create, or whether they will create anything at all.
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@laurelrusswurm That's probably because the thread broke and context was lost. Original thread! http://ur1.ca/525r5
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@lxoliva Second, authors have absolute power over whether they release work to the public. Or set fire to it and stamp the ashes into dust.
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@cwebber i got it as an rd ;o
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@laurelrusswurm I was tempted to alert @contextpatrol to the thread but decided against it… ;) #contextpatrol
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@laurelrusswurm First, stoners have the absolute power over how high they get, whether they get high at all. #badhumour
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@laurelrusswurm Second, stoners have absolute power over whether they roll a joint. Or set fire to it and stamp the ashes into dust.
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@lxoliva Authors can't force readers to read, just as readers can't force authors to write.
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@lxoliva What readers choose to read impacts on authors; authors are affected by readers choices, because authors want their work read.
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@laurelrusswurm they already have absolute power, but you want them to have still more? #devilsadvocate
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@laurelrusswurm I dunno, studio execs force writer monkeys to pump out movie scripts, they proof read the results, does that count? rofl
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@laurelrusswurm "commercial" is legally ambiguous term, people think "big publishers", NC also excludes a t-shirt sold at barely above cost.
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@kevingranade commercial is not ambiguous at all.... it means commerce, as in selling (or trying to sell)
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@thistleweb those writer monkeys just want to buy food for their families and Lexuses (Lexii?) for their garages
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@laurelrusswurm for a growing community it is necessary, I (now) think: It enables people to pay their bills by following their passion.
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@kevingranade the operative word is "sold"
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@laurelrusswurm otherwise you have “1 artist, many drones”, and the artist can’t even use the contributions → no community work.
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@laurelrusswurm and as soon as you get big enough, you *need* a way ta generate money (as long as there are centralized resources)
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@lxoliva Although the perception is that authors benefit from copyright, it is actually publishers that benefit and who drive copyright law
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@laurelrusswurm @lxoliva Which is why the national #copyrightforartists #facebook groups are so important.
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@arnebab my point was simply that communities can and do exist without commerce.
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@arnebab but that is a commercial community's need to generate income.
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@laurelrusswurm precisely. in general, authors don't have that choice (as it should be), but corporations do (worse than authors having it)
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@laurelrusswurm yup. that's the natural monopoly authors get. no sense in adding artificial monopolies on top of that.
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@lxoliva currently !Copyright is the default GLOBALLY. Legally I can't publish direct to !PublicDomain in !Canada.
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@kevingranade that's where the absolute power stops. Once released to the public (properly to the public domain) it's out of author's hands
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@laurelrusswurm direct or indirect, there is no legal framework to support public domain here either, whatever I, as creator, say...
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@lxoliva like farmers who rely on middle men to package/distribute their wares, authors have relied on publishers, to their detriment.
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@laurelrusswurm same here. I just oppose the notion that we authors should be entitled to decide what powers to relinquish by © licenses
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@laurelrusswurm the © powers are illegitimate, so we (like everyone) have a moral obligation to respect each other
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@laurelrusswurm copyleft (CC BY-SA, GPL) do just that; other CC licenses don't; other FS licenses do but pass illegitimate power on
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@laurelrusswurm all of the !cc licences except CC0 actually depend on copyright (author's right); and CC0 is not legal in many countries...
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♻ @laurelrusswurm: @kevingranade that's where the absolute power stops. Once released to the public ([...]domain) it's out of author's hands
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@laurelrusswurm phew! very glad we agree about that ;-)
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@lxoliva there have been centuries of copyright misinformation and propaganda to counter; the very word "copyright" is classic doublespeak
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@laurelrusswurm amen sister ;-)
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@laurelrusswurm and my point is that the communities which exist completely without commerce seldom work when they get big. Counter exampl?
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♻ @laurelrusswurm: the very word "copyright" is classic doublespeak // yeah, it's similar in spirit to piracy, unlike sharing copies
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@lxoliva we agree on quite a lot; just I think creators need time to learn this stuff; software people have had at least decade leadtime
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@laurelrusswurm I know we agree on a lot. that's why I was so surprised when it looked like you defended authors' choices of powers
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@arnebab communities form based on commonalities; family, friendship, geography, interests, endeavors ... size is irrelevant
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@arnebab using size to measure success is childish, it turns into “mine's bigger than yours” :-) and we know how little it matters
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@lxoliva If people tell creators 'these are your choices but you must use this one' will send creators back into distributors clutches :(
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@laurelrusswurm oh, humans, so gullible ;-)
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@laurelrusswurm is this re: nc/nd issue?
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@laurelrusswurm like, if you (society) don't let us (publishers) exploit them (authors), who's gonna keep you entertained?
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@lxoliva size is momentum and the possibility to fill many niches. It requires a different kind of organization, though: Structure; costly.
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@laurelrusswurm In any community with >100 people I saw till now, there were people working professionally; even in the political ones.
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@laurelrusswurm I’m a roleplayer, which is mostly noncommercial (you meet with friends to play), but the publishers make money - rightfully
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@tekk yes, it's all your fault :)
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@laurelrusswurm well there's the possibility of a tradeoff here, nc removed w/ a clause put in for prophet sharing at a reasonable rate
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@tekk (currently trading 20 muhammads to 1 jesus, the market is really flooded...)
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@laurelrusswurm I actually tried to find actual statistics on jesus vs muhammad on naming 4 acc. figures, couldn't find any for jesus :/
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@arnebab communities have overlap. My neighborhood community (geography) has an annual party; no commerce; everyone brings/shares ...
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@arnebab ... people in this community may belong to different professional communities, school communities .... communities overlap
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@laurelrusswurm NC disallows people from supporting a community full-time, and I think that that is bad.
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@laurelrusswurm are teachers allowed to use NC content in a neighborhood event when it helps them help the children - which is their job?
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@laurelrusswurm is an author allowed to use NC content in a summer celebration when he finds new readers, there?
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@laurelrusswurm irrelevant, imo. we're talking supplementary non massive corporation texts/vids/whatever
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@laurelrusswurm wait, I'm supporting nc? #isconfused. anyway what did you think about my proposal?
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@laurelrusswurm ...actually tell me when you wake up, extremely tired & must sleep....
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@laurelrusswurm in germany it’s the same, but from kindergarten… :(
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@laurelrusswurm and what if he does not use his own content? Can he use NC if it effectively earns him money?
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@laurelrusswurm what about the parents? NC is a deep swamp excluding too many. And I think it is good to make money doing the right thing.
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@laurelrusswurm the ones who want NC to “keep out bad corporations” actually strengthen those, because they stop small-scale professionals.
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@arnebab If you don't like NC, don't support NC. Don't support artists who use NC licensing.
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@arnebab as a parent, i do not infringe copyright period because children learn by example (by copying) so i would not use NC for C purposes
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@arnebab as a blogger I only ever search images licensed so that I can use them. I no longer even look at © NC images when I need a picture
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@arnebab small scale professionals will stop using NC if it costs them business.
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@laurelrusswurm more exactly: wallet-voting alone is too weak, and turning to doing only wallet-voting kills off change momentum. !cc !gpl
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@laurelrusswurm same for me. I actually use the !GPL for almost everything from graphical art to text to code.
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@laurelrusswurm if most non-professional artists use #NC, we get much fewer small scale professionals, even though the artists like them.
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@laurelrusswurm not infringing copyright is nearly impossible these days, so I instead teach daughter how absurd and distorted it is
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@laurelrusswurm I'd rather not teach her to blindly obey the law, for laws can be unjust, and copyright is one such law
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@lxoliva bad laws can put people in jail #bettertoworktochangebadlaw
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@laurelrusswurm yep, but to change a bad law, gotta show (i) laws can be bad, and (ii) that that one law is bad
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@lxoliva It is not necessary to break law to show it is bad,
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@lxoliva in fact breaking law lends credence to the copyright maximalists claims for law's necessity.
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@laurelrusswurm how about breaking a law that's impossible not to break? :-)
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@laurelrusswurm BTW, I didn't write I break the law. even if I did, it would be kind of silly to put it on the public record ;-)
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@laurelrusswurm though I do things that many believe to be against the law, but I know better and I share that knowledge whenever I can
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@arnebab GPL is good for software. In other cases it's often too hard to define what the source code is.
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@laurelrusswurm, I don't get it. The law is needed because people break it?
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@furzknoten in !gplv3 it’s easy: the source is what you edit.
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@arnebab how to annoy ppl w/ gplv3: code something with a hex editor
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@tekk well, yes. Or write code in your local language. Or in a complex, little known language. Or intentionally cryptic perl ;)
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@lxoliva if that is the case, then law makers must break it too, bring it to their attention, bring their lawbreaking to attention of public
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@lxoliva In an effort to shine a light on !copyright absurdity I included a scene showing confusion in my novel: http://ur1.ca/4h0dm
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@laurelrusswurm, but do they claim "unauthorized downloads are stealing" or that "people break the law, so they must be wrong"?
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@laurelrusswurm, compare that to "killing is wrong" (moral values) with "the law must still exist because people break it" (loop thinking).
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@laurelrusswurm it's that "trying to sell" where it gets ambiguous. Differentiate between for-profit company making a generic commercial...
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@laurelrusswurm ...and a non-incorporated artist (who also sells works) publishing a work for self-promotion.
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@laurelrusswurm and from there, how is that different from publishing any work for which you receive recognition?
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it isn't ambiguous @kevingranade If I use someone's !copyright song to score my booktrailer even if i never make a dime it's commercial use
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@laurelrusswurm so if I make the same booktrailer it would also be a commercial work somehow? Are you saying CC-BY-NC can never be used?
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@kevingranade Not at all. As with !Copyright, commercial use may be granted by rights holder/copyright owner.
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@laurelrusswurm I disagree, copyright infringement is in no way morally wrong, no need to appeal to its vagueness.
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@laurelrusswurm so now you want to restrict people from including commerce in their community? The point is that NC *infringes* on community
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@kevingranade I have never said !copyright infringement is morally wrong, but laws make it illegal, & many lawmakers don't understand it.
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@laurelrusswurm but you are saying that NC implies ND, because any derivitave work would be commercial.
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@kevingranade It is because most of the public and most of the lawmakers do not understand the issues that propaganda drives !copyright law
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@kevingranade Where did I say that?
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@kevingranade didn't say that either. A book trailer is an ADVERTISEMENT which is, by definition, commercial.
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@laurelrusswurm, so the issue is not that infringing the law makes them right about its existence. But that they have different moral values
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@laurelrusswurm yes you didn't, you answerd my question by changing the subject, what if advertisement is for the company, not a product?
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@laurelrusswurm and if that is commercial, how is an individual taking credit for publishing any work not commercial?
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@kevingranade @laurelrusswurm Commercial activity is like porn: We all know it when we see it but it's pretty much impossible to define
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@expatpaul is that your face?
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@sandersch Do you mean my avatar or are you trying to make a point too subtle for me to understand?
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@expatpaul yes, that's exactly my point.
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@expatpaul no replied to the wrong dent :-s sorry about that.
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@sandersch Haha... Who's drunk denting now? ;-)
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@expatpaul that's the worst part, I haven't consumed any alcohol.
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@kevingranade an advertisement for a company is still an advertisement, just as an advertisement for a charity is still an advertisement !cc
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@kevingranade what question did I fail to answer?
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@kevingranade Do you mean: "so now you want to restrict people from including commerce in their community?
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@kevingranade If that is the question you say I did not answer, please look again: http://identi.ca/notice/83433329
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@kevingranade when my child signed name to artwork done at school, he took credit for his work. This is non commercial. This is attribution.
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@kevingranade when i attribute quotations to the person who wrote/said the words, it is not commercial.
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@kevingranade Which is why !CreativeCommons licenses have the attribution-only license http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
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@expatpaul Most confusion about what is/is not commercial is because commercial interests have been at pains to blur the lines
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@cascardo Too often lawmakers rely on advisors rely on "accepted wisdom" & staff who reduce facts to soundbites and lobbyists to decide law
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@cascardo UK politician @tom_watson said he'd never seen the level of lobbying Hollywood applied to UK politicians to push through DEAct
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@kevingranade community can exist without commerce, and lately commerce has been targetting community.
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@cascardo bad laws allow the state to inflict punishment on citizens
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@laurelrusswurm I can exist without pants, too. Pants are sometimes very useful though.
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@kevingranade CC-NC doesn't infringe community; it infringes culture and personal liberty in the same way !copyright does. (see @Crosbie)
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@gomerx true enough, just as sometimes they get in the way. :)
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@laurelrusswurm Yes. I think if we trade with each other, we can cut some of the corporations out of the picture. It's inconvenient, though
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@gomerx like this: EU Officially Seizes The !PublicDomain, Retroactively Extends !Copyright http://ur1.ca/51mt7 :(
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@laurelrusswurm OK. Most of what I need is available from folks who aren't jerks about copyright.
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@laurelrusswurm I hope it's just an act of desperation.
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@laurelrusswurm WTF I didn't about this :-(
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@gomerx Couple years ago I got permission to use a headliner's © title track from his new CD to score a DVD I made for my kid's community
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@gomerx please don't read that as me saying you are villifying anyone :( this convo has been going on long
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@laurelrusswurm True. But with enough good free culture, no one buys Lady Gaga anymore and copyright becomes irellevant.
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@laurelrusswurm No. I didn't think that.
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@gomerx exactly. Except Lady Gaga is smart enough to adapt. :)
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@marjoleink @laurelrusswurm CC0 does use copyright. It's a disclaimer of rights with a fallback to a public license if disclaimer is illegal
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@laurelrusswurm Yes. I think ultimately that money is not what she's after.
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@pehjota Thank you, I had an idea that it was something like that.
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@gomerx although most creators are quite happy if they have a chance to make a living, most art is from the heart. #icingonthecake
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@laurelrusswurm Yes. It's been twisted to be something different, though. We're sold an image of creativity as a way to get rich.
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@laurelrusswurm Sure. Any law that extends copyright beyond the death of the artists has to be about making money.
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@gomerx exactly.
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@laurelrusswurm When in doubt, read the license. :)
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@mjjzf certainly there are times it is appropriate, overlap doesn't have to be bad. But sometimes it is.
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@cascardo good catch! in a democracy, people wanting to do sth is an argument *against*, for *for* laws that prohibit it
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@laurelrusswurm heh. no need, a movie server was found in the .br senate and made the headlines a while ago ;-)
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@lxoliva lol... the trick is to never let them forget it (they will be more careful for a time)
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