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Wishing the founder of Free Software would apply the same reasoning to Free Culture: http://ur1.ca/5je42
Friday, 28-Oct-11 18:58:35 UTC from web- Mike Linksvayer, Renata Avila and Christopher Allan Webber and 4 others like this.
- Karl Fogel, antoinemoreau, Guruprasad L and Kyle Conway repeated this.
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@qco @libreuniverse I'm sympathetic, but I don't think the *same* ethical reasons that support software freedom apply
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Stallman Remix Challenge http://ur1.ca/5je42 via @qco
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@qco Free as in Freedom... And Zombies. Enough said. stallmanzombies.wikia.com
Kete Foy likes this. -
@lxoliva Have you read @ninapaley's great Rantifesto on this? She addresses exactly your issue. http://ur1.ca/4yz8d
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@kfogel yep. I sympathize with the cause, and I'm a © abolitionist myself, but there are other ethical grounds for !FS IMHO
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@kfogel as in, arguments for FC support software freedom, but some arguments for freedom of functional works don't apply to all culture
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I suspect they only dont apply under our general understanding of culture, so tainted by monopoly and control it has lost touch with freedom
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@solstag I don't think so. It even seems like you're guessing incorrectly the arguments I'm alluding to
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@solstag e.g., I don't think some job can become dependent on a work of art in the same way it can on a piece of software
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@solstag e.g., you could argue a song, poem, or scene would be ideal to get a point across, but others could do almost as well
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@solstag whereas if data is stored in a secret encoding with some specific (privative) software, you need that specific program to decode
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@solstag so the ethical arguments against this kind of control through functional works don't apply to (some?) works of art
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@solstag but that's not to say that there aren't *other* arguments to apply to works of art, software and more, nor that I reject them :-)
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Getting a point across using a Nina Paley character instead of Donald Duck is only "almost as well" if u ignore all of sociology+psychology.
Mike Linksvayer and Rob Myers like this. -
@lxoliva what if the point you want to get across concerns existing culture? ...
Rob Myers likes this. -
The effort to establish recognition for an expression that carries a rival ideology can be just as hard as that to reverse-engineer a format
Mike Linksvayer and Rob Myers like this. -
@lxoliva ... I don't completely understand, may not completely agree – http://ur1.ca/59dq8 – but see http://ur1.ca/5jiru by @robmyers
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@lxoliva I doubt you believe proprietary sw is ok so long as there is a functionally equiv libre alternative.
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@solstag I don't mean there can be nearly-perfect replacements, but that with some effort it can be done
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@solstag I have a hard time believing substituting a non-Free cultural element can be as hard as reverse engineering
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@solstag on a cognitive level, it can take more words; that psychological and “impact” matters is another important difference sw x art
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@mlinksva no, but I think this is also an unintended straw man
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@mlinksva unintended not just because you didn't mean to, but because I didn't present the whole argument ;-)
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@mlinksva an important part of it is ability to change the software so it decodes data *and* does sth else you want that it doesn't
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@mlinksva so correct parallel would be being able to change a work of work so it conveys a diff message you want it to
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@mlinksva if sw is proprietary, there's just no way to do it; you can't even develop equivalent software
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@mlinksva for a work of art, even if it's non-Free, you can always (I believe, without proof) come up with something similar enough
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@mlinksva translating a joke can sometimes be hard, when it involves local culture or wordplay. but would that make it non-Free?
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@mlinksva and, more importantly, does that near-impossibility imply someone else is excising unjust, unethical power over you?
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@lxoliva I actually think this might even be *less* true:
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@lxoliva You can clone proprietary office suite, people will use it. You can clone proprietary Star Trek and it'll be culturally soggy.
Rob Myers likes this. -
@cwebber but then, one's not legally allowed to clone that office suite, whereas one can count on fair use for the latter
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@cwebber and then, various successful sequels of Star Trek can of invalidate your point, don't they?
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@cwebber besides, we all know legal permission to make a sequel will *not* drain the excess water from the adaptation; talent does
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@cwebber btw, I do recognize that lawsuit concerns might prevent unauthorized adaptations from being executed properly
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@lxoliva sw is functional, any work that does the job is enough. Art is subjective/sentimental: cover songs never replace the original work
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@gabrielsaldana agreed; very different kind of dependencies that for this and other reasons bring about different ethical issues
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@gabrielsaldana e.g., by the sentimental argument, rights to adapt and improve are irrelevant for art (mods won't evoke same feeling)
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@gabrielsaldana by that utility argument, copying and sharing the unmodified work, to share the emotional value, would suffice
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@fontana what kind of secrets can prevent the creation of an exact replica, or a similar work of art?
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@fontana (and I mention secrets because patents don't apply to art, and clean-room and fair use can work around ©)
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@fontana ((or should I have writen “to escape the ©laws”? :-D ))
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@lxoliva Copyright law can prevent "the creation of an exact replica, or a similar work of art." (The later depends on specifics.)
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@lxoliva many examples of libre equivalents of proprietary sw, many direct reimplementations/clones/replacements. not sure what you mean.
Rob Myers likes this. -
@lxoliva many want cultural relevance more deeply embedded in new works than displaying verbatim copy of known work obtains. not edge case.
Rob Myers likes this. -
Have you thought about non-functional software, like computer games? Do they need to be free software as well in your view?
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@sazius all software is functional. just like games reuse general-purpose code, code written for games can be (and is) repurposed
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@mlinksva proprietary software not only divides the people (can't share), but also controls their lives (jobs/processes/data etc)
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@mlinksva by controlling, I don't mean you can't do whatever you want *to* the software, but *through* the software
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@mlinksva now, let's look at works of art. if you can't share them, they divide the people, and that creates a moral dilemma
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@mlinksva but I don't see that a work of art controls what you can do *through* it (means), even when it limits what you can do *to|with* it
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@mlinksva so a sharable work of art doesn't divide or control, so it's ethical and can be a positive contribution to society, ...
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@mlinksva ... even if it's not as positive as it could be if it could be further improved and adapted
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@mlinksva now, when you use non-Free Software, even if you can share it, it controls you, so it's unethical, not a positive contribution
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@mlinksva (one could even argue that non-Free Software you can share is worse, because it incites you to extend its harm)
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@mlinksva I meant secret formats, protocols and algorithms
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@mlinksva I meant to write it's harmful, too, but the word somehow escaped me (and it wouldn't have fit anyway ;-)
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@mlinksva sorry, I can't grasp what you meant here. can you please say it with different words, maybe also with more dents?
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Not art historically as we can't tell which differences may become perceptible and important (this relates to the problem of the fake).
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The form and content of art cannot be substituted in the same way functionality can. See modern/postmodern literature & art.
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And if you want to quote Star Trek but can't, you lose the cultural resonance, content, and reference. Vim/Emacs != Captain Kirk/Doctor Who
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Doctor Who > Emacs
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http://is.gd/Dktskc http://is.gd/qo2iRA http://is.gd/AVp189 - Artworks and their references are unique - http://is.gd/sYN3j5
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
Yes alternative licencing can't help with that, reform is needed to support it.
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But according to some, games can be seen as art :) But yeah, I agree, just playing devil's advocate.
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@speeddefrost what do you think makes the sonic screwdriver so extensible? ;-)
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@sazius other programs can also be seen as art, but that doesn't preclude them from also being functional works
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What about graphics included in computer games, then? (I'm currently struggling with this issue myself, I'm making a GPLv3 game ... :)
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@sazius in general graphics are pure data and replaceable, not functional works, but there may be corner cases
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But if my game is GPLv3 but I don't include the gfx you can't easily compile & run it (you need to replace gfx). Doesn't that violate GPL?
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@qco What would Stallman do in your position? He'd get over the fact that someone disagrees with his opinion and get on with the job.
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@sazius IANAL, but my understanding is that if you (re)distribute only the source form, you're always ok WRT GPL
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@sazius if you distribute the binaries under GPLv3 separately from the graphics, and offer corresponding sources to the binaries, ok
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@sazius but if graphics are embedded in sources or binaries, you might be running afoul of the GPL, but mere aggregation kicks in
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@sazius actually, you, as the sole © holder, can't run afoul of a license, but your concern for redistributors is appreciated :-)
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@sazius the GPL doesn't require offering *everything* needed to compile&run the program (e.g. compiler, OS, inputs such as gfx)
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Interesting, because I'm now actually using Qt's resource system which embeds the images in the binary. That can be changed of course...
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It's not the same as software, why should he use the same reasoning? Also the GNU GPL depends on copyright. Change society, don't blame rms
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Yes I realise that, but a FLOSS programme that no one can redistribute is a bit silly IMHO :)
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@ecadre All of this is *about* changing society!
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@lxoliva completely agree
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Let me guess. Lisp and Perl?
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@fontana secrets are what prevent clean-room development of similar/improved sw; how about art?
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Art's functionality is its uniquely significant material expression. A similar artwork therefore won't have the same functionality.
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"Clean room" art doesn't work: there's no interface/functionality split in art & trying to re-implement concepts fails - http://is.gd/duODaz
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Well elisp... :-)
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That said I have a conceptual art project called SAM to recreate artistic modernism, but that's designed to fail in interesting ways. ;-)
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@robmyers Would you happen to read French, by any chance? I've written a few bits on this matter, feedback welcome. http://is.gd/oJt5P3
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Society doesn't need to change - nor can it. Law must change - and unlike our liberty, the privilege of #copyright CAN be abolished.
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