Conversation
Notices
-
Civil disobedience is breaking a law and bearing the consequences in order to point out that the law is unjust. Whining defeats the purpose
- D. Jason Fleming repeated this.
-
@gomerx I'd definitely agree that it tends to interfere with the message, but I wouldn't say it defeats the purpose entirely.
-
@gomerx 1 The outrage is coming from citizens not engaged in the protests who are seeing the violence. 2 Since when are…
-
@kevingranade you are really saying: "mentioning police violence interferes with the message" ?
-
I've heard OWS people say that they're doing civil disobedience. Civil disobedience includes accepting consequences. That's all I'm saying
-
That's what I'm saying. Of course I'm borrowing from Ghandi. Focus on the main issue, not side issues.
-
Outrage at the official response to peaceful protest was what got Britain out of India (Gandhi's goal).
Marjolein Katsma likes this. -
Right. They marched into police beatings in order to bring attention to their goal. The beatings weren't the goal, though.
-
The important thing is that they put the message across. How they do it is entirely up to them providing they can resist becoming violent.
-
@parlementum I was responding to @gomerx's characterization of 'whining', I think publicising police violence can definitely be on-message.
-
@gomerx by that logic, people who download or remix copyrighted material shouldn't whine when they get arrested.
-
Right, if they're doing it as an act of civil disobedience. You are correct.
-
@gomerx Please point me to the Thoreau, Ghandi, of MLK, Jr directive "Thou Shalt not Whine"
-
I posted a Thoreau quote earlier. He doesn't use those specific words, though. OK YOU WIN!!!! :)
-
the quote only says jail is the place for a just man, nothing about suffering in silence. CD is a tool for ~attention~ on injustice.
-
So this entire movement is to focus attention on the misuse of pepper spray? Have you read "Civil Disobedience?"
-
The civil rights movement was not about the misuse of firehoses either.
-
the anti-war movement was not about the misuse of firearms. (kent state)
-
But it had a goal. Thoreau was in jail to protest a specific law he opposed. Suffering pointed directly to the goal.
-
The protesters arrested in Oakland at the latest raid are not complaining about police abuse, because the police responded reasonably.
-
OK. I still don't see violation of a specific law to prove it is unjust. That is central to civil disobedience. This is just protest.
-
A prime goal is overturning Citizens United. If $=speech and $=property, tents as property = free speech.
-
and there is precedent http://ur1.ca/5varn
-
Not sure I understand your math there. Still looks like protest, not civil disobedience.
-
"Civil disobedience is the active, professed refusal to obey certain laws, demands, and commands of a govt, or of an occupying intl power."
-
but call it whatever you like. I don't care. and neither do the protesters.
-
Yes. Exactly.
-
I'm just having a hard time understanding how a peaceful protest constitues "the active, professed refusal to obey certain laws..." See?
-
That seems to be the case. Of course it depends in which context I interpret "context," relative to the DentiVerse, or in general?
-
They actively refused to vacate public space where they assembled to petition for a redress of grievances. what's NOT to understand?
-
@gomerx so, is my speeding to and from work Civil Disobedience? I refuse to obey the traffic laws of my area. Sounds like it fits the bill
-
If your intention is to show the speed limit is unjust, yes.
-
@gomerx the speed limit is lower than is warranted in the area I speak of, so enforcing might be unjust.
-
I think they should throw napalm on your for this offense! /cc @gomerx
-
The unjust law part. Were they gathered to protest the fact that the police were asking them to disperse?
-
they purposely disobeyed Parks & Rec Dept rules that are in direct conflict with the constitution. Why does this bother you so much?
-
OK. That seems fair.
-
@johnnynull I doubt that will happen. I have been passed by cops while driving this stretch of road. It is aparent nobody respects the limit
-
@gomerx Also, your definition says nothing about intention. Only the action taken. If intention matters, you should update that…
-
I guess if OWS is all about changing "Parks & Rec Dept rules" maybe it would be easier to start a petition?
-
Well, if they do, don't whine about it!
-
It's been 20 years since I read Ghandi, but I'm pretty sure he called on non-violent resistance as a last resort.
-
Which definition? I've consistently said civil disobedience is disobeying an unjust law with the intention of overturning it.
-
You have a good point though, that ignoring speed laws causes them to be uninforced and ineffective.
-
Exercising Free Speech is not a last resort effort. Refusing orders to end said exercise of rights is just, and is civil disobedience.
-
Those arrested peacefully are not complaining. Those abused are complaining, and it is effective. Now, what is your real issue here?
-
If your saying the whole goal of these protests is to uphold free speech, then I don't have any issues.
-
It is one of many issues. all of which have been ignored for a long time, including endless petitions that merely get patronizing responses.
-
So is your complaint that there are many issues? Why does this bother you so much? Is this just a semantic academic discussion?
-
Having just repealed an unjust law here in Ohio after much hard work, I find arguments that the issues have been ignored unconvincing.
-
I just feel that this movement has a right to be angry, but I fear there methods won't be effective.
-
Yes.
All Identi.ca content and data are available under the