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Seriously growing to hate the amorphous "open source community" moniker. I prefer "freedom guerrillas".
- Mike Linksvayer, Stav Prodromou and Jason Riedy and 8 others like this.
- Cesar Cotiz (cotizcesar), Scott Sweeny and bouts and 6 others repeated this.
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@evan The problem is people are still hung up on labelling 'groups', the 'open source community' is about as cohesive a…
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Cohesion isn't a required attribute for the definition of community :) and thank heaven for that.
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I think also that "community" is a word with wishy-washy, second-class status; e.g. "community centres" with third-hand…
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I agree that "open source community" annoying, "community" often used by wishy-washy people, but not the word "community"'s fault
Jason Riedy likes this. -
${faif_project} has "community", "free software"/"open source" have "movement(s)"
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@cwebber Yeah. They should say Free Software community. #selfparody
Christopher Allan Webber and laurelrusswurm like this. -
Movements? Elderly folks with constipation have movements.
Christopher Allan Webber likes this. -
Yes, mostly at community centers.
Christopher Allan Webber likes this. -
I just think that "HP retreats, cedes strategic IP territory to triumphant freedom guerrillas" sounds more awesome.
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
I'm with you, @evan. Safe corporate language tends to obscure that free software is radical, to the point that even we forget.
Christopher Allan Webber likes this. -
@fontana Bourgeois or middle-class? And does that make it less radical, less important, both, or neither?
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@fontana I agree. Do you think #revolution is necessary?
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Actually I believe that bourgeois and middle-class are the same thing. It is !disturbing to make new words, because one is lazy to think.
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see also nationalistic and patriotic.
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@mcepl perhaps you're right; I take "bourgeoisie" to connote the ruling class (at least in Marx) but it is more expansive than that.
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I have to believe you but I am still suspicious. Are you sure it isn't patriotic v. nationalistic laziness?
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my point is that every good idea could be misused for bad purposes and we cannot hide behind words.
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@mcepl which of course no reason for you to be so condescending.
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and sorry, being born in the Communist Czechoslovakia, I don't tend to take Marx much highly.
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am I? How so? Reall, please, explain, I didn't meant to.
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could you elaborate, please? meaning (no offense meant) "the good opressed people for which we liberals fight"?
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@mcepl "It is disturbing to make new words, because one is lazy to think." I wasn't praising Marx, just characterizing his usage.
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*that* wasn't meant against Marx, I don't think he even knew term "middle-class" (not sure), more about the modern use.
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I was responding to two posts: that quote was the condescending part. (@evan, sorry for polluting your thread.)
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@mcepl in part, but also because proportion of population doing ~manual labor decreased, and broad analog of title inflation.
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@cwebber I look forward to a time when "movements" need "managers", then we'll know the term vacuated(?) to community level.
Richard Fontana likes this. -
Actually , I like the thread, but maybe I am the only one ;)? Anyway problem is also in quite ambiguous meaning behind those words.
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To reply also to the original post: I wouldn't be that skeptical, see “community” is still strong enough to show many false FLOSS projs.
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Perhaps "freedom guerrillas" should #occupy_proprietary as a way to promote change?
Evan Prodromou likes this. -
what about “commandante Kuhn”? ;)
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Commander Kuhn: Goodbye Galaxy! #vaguejokes #dosgames
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@fontana I think #freesoftware needs to breakout above and below.
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@cwebber i was just playing that the other day lol
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It must be "commandante" untranslated ;) However, in the moment I wrote so many !disturbing thoughts came to my mind, I am not sure abot it.
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Given it is not clear which Marx *you* mean, your question is very #confusing (which is not !disturbing).
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@fontana That removes a lot of my confusion about American political rhetoric, thanks! ("middle class" in US political …
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Well, I’m a freedom chimp, close enough. ;)
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I fear trolling is found in every corner nowadays.
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@copiesofcopies,I'm pretty sure I've never forgotten that software freedom is radical, despite substantial efforts to suppress my views.
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@fontana, I'm pretty sure equating an image of me to Frankenstein's monster is pretty cruel. OTOH, you've got a free speech right to do so.
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@bkuhn do you really think that software freedom is radical?
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Holy guacamole, this conversation has gotten convoluted.
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agreed ♻ @evan Holy guacamole, this conversation has gotten convoluted
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You knew this was going to happen when you got those cosmetic bolts implanted in your neck, @bkuhn.
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Would you expect any different around here? ;)
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I'm glad to have provided you this opportunity to promote yourself, but the point was more general.
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@bkuhn we all know you’re a radical. Kinda goes with the #SoftwareFreedom turf thou.
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@mray, software freedom is clearly radical. Corporations call it "unAmerican", a "cancer", a "virus" & attempt to destroy it.
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@bkuhn I would like to point out that their arguments are more appropriately directed inwards than at us. Whats more American than helping?
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@bkuhn That is purely because they view it as a theat to their revenue streams.
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isn't software freedom itself something rather "natural" like other freedoms? (whether corporations like that or not)
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the fighting over it today may be radical - on both sides I'd say.
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@mray Bbbrrrrrr, this room is soooo cold, heaters have been on all sides of the war with cats. What you say?
Christopher Allan Webber and Bruce Cowan like this. -
@mray,I do believe software freedom is an inalienable right. Supporting other inalienable rights (universal suffrage) used to be radical too
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saying that "free software" is radical would mean the beginning of computing was "radical". I can't see that.
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@bkuhn ok so you agree that the actions pursuing or AVOIDING it may have become radical, but the idea isn't.
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Christopher Allan Webber likes this.
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Corporations are now good at dividing & conquering #FLOSS world: pro-permissive, anti- !GPL. Policy same as 2001; their tactics are better.
drew Roberts likes this. -
I think you're right, @evan "Community" has lost most of its power - what a shame that is though
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So the answer appears to be MPL v2, which is semi-permissive but pro-GPL...
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You know, what worries me most about corporate hostility to GPL? It has to be because they don't want to give irrevocably; they want strings
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Communitize the communitah!
speeddefrost and Psychedelic Squid like this. -
Or LGPL? Why nobody mentions that here?
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LGPLv3 still has most of the characteristics that make corporate lawyers fearful; it's just v3 with an exception after all.
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Hmm, you are probably right. (/me looks over the shoulder to our JBoss world.)
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@reality Immanentize the eschaton
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@parlementum No. Get a job, hippie.
speeddefrost likes this. -
Guer-ril-la! Guer-ril-la!
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Some of them sits on the next chair from me ;)
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@fontana sure, well and that upstream contribution is *way* harder for upstreams in practice, which makes permissive more appealing
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While I agree that most !freesoftware stuff is bourgeois and pro !capitalist, space exists for anticapitalist truly radical free software
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@tedks: it is indeed bourgeois as it's reform rather than revolution, and pro capitalist as it doesn't oppose capitalism. But...
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@tedks: ...in my experience truly radical (sic) anticapitalist (sic) FS abandons free software's irony & is therefore self-defeating...
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@tedks: ...I love crabgrass, though, and wish that there was a route for radical/anticapitalist FS that didn't just break FS.
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@robmyers What do you mean by "free software's irony"?
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@tedks: its use of "intellectual property" law against itself. This makes it a reversal of a form's meaning, i.e. irony.
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@robmyers !freesoftware doesn't use #copyright law against itself, free sw uses copyright law against its prevailing use under !capitalism
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Note he didn't say "FAIF community", he used the term "open-source". I believe he meant it as being way too moderate / conservative :-)
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@Mvdan I knew he had not said it I was offering it as an alternative. FAIF is radical.
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It depends on the case, too. If we're talking about, say, a computer, I don't see it as radical.
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Please do not interfere with other conversations.
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@Mvdan Software freedom is radical. For ICT it makes all the difference.
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I had never been told that software freedom was radical by someone around here. Why?
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@Mvdan Look at the alternatives. It means being even more controlled by corporations. If only we could take as much power from them all.
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Software freedom means we are being controlled even more by corporations? Did I get your point?
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@Mvdan No, the alternatives to software freedom mean being even more controlled (worded badly in previous dent).
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@aurele That's wonderful!
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@fontana, Hrm, good point. Personally, I actually think the USA voting age should be 13, not 18. I suppose that's radical.
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@bkuhn I'd move to 15, as someone who has a more recent experience being 13
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@bkuhn yeah voting age of 13 is good because then they will just vote for whoever is trending on twitter. Oh wait, that's bad.
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@bkuhn though having said that, the average adult is dumb as a door knob and their voting decision is ill-informed anyway.
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@bkuhn I'd switch from voting to sortition and minimum age for office holding 13 (actually I haven't thought about min age). all pragmatic
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@ddevine,I've wondered if that inspired Constitutional avoidance of democratic POTUS election (electoral college),rather than mere logistics
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Corporate lawyers have always been afraid of software freedom, that's no surprise. Hence why we need more non-profit-developed projects!
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Did humans have "inalienable" software freedom rights before there were working computers?
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@evan Did humans have "inalienable" freedom of the press before there was the printing press? #tyoplasttime
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"inalienable" rights a nutbadge, not far from another, "natural" rights. Sorry all.
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I think so, since pre-computers, all computing was math & it's impossible to do math w/out giving C&CS to your work. ("Show your work") :)
Evan Prodromou likes this. -
I'm not a fan of the concept of "inalienable" rights. I prefer the question, "Can we have a just society without protecting these rights?"
Mike Linksvayer and Christopher Allan Webber like this. -
My freedom increases when people develop and release Free Software, whatever their motivations.
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Exactly.
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@cwebber "there were no photocopiers on the savannah" ;-)
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@mlinksva Don't get me wrong, I'm highly-rule-valuing consequentialist, or consequentialist all the way-way-way-down (you know that already)
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@bkuhn You're not terribly familiar with the history of mathematics I take it. Regular claims to proof w/o proof, methods weren't pub, etc.
Richard Fontana likes this. -
i prefer: bright, elusive butterflies of love. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6727qgmRbY
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Natural rights are inalienable. Moreover, they arise from the nature of the human being - not from the tools they develop.
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Agreed. Go back 100,000 years and see which "natural" rights are respected by your closer-to-nature caveman peers. Rights are privileges.
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Basically the same as souls.
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@jasonriedy, weren't such claims rejected? Was it common to just "believe" that someone else had proved something?
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@evan, Depends on the software & what it does. The details do really matter, I think. (StatusNet is more important than most, FWIW :)
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@bkuhn Does the name Fermat ring a bell?
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@fontana exposing present bogosities'd be better. Some want C&CS for research to extent possible, making it "reproducible research"
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@mlinksva 'Souls'? These are imaginary/religious concepts. Rights, on the other hand, are real powers of the human being (equalised).
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@crosbie [gets out PKE Meter and starts scanning for rights...]
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@robmyers Unlike souls or ghosts, the physical power of the human being is not at all imaginary. To deny rights is to surrender to savagery.
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@robmyers One cannot 'disable' rights. One can only not recognise them - to pretend another has that power - hence instruments of injustice.
Mikael likes this. -
I'm dubious. FS community has benefited greatly from code written by less freedom-loving people. It's not good to depend on, but can help.
Christopher Allan Webber likes this. -
@crosbie indeed rights do not exist outside recognition and enforcement. they're alienated every day, naturally. mumbojumbo no help.
Rob Myers likes this. -
@mlinksva That state/legislature can unethically ignore or refuse to recognise our rights doesn't make them non-existent or alienable.
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@mlinksva It most defeatist for individuals to abandon recognition of their own rights simply because of state abuse & corruption.
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@crosbie I seem to be evidence to the contrary.
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is it that they don't exist or that they are abused? are the US founding documents wrong on this point?
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@crosbie I'm fairly uninformed about incorporation, but if I bother to fix, my opinion will be based on rough welfare analysis, not fairies
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@crosbie http://www.dklevine.com/papers/imbookfinalall.pdf word count: inalienable (0); natural rights (1 not relevant)
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@crosbie using arguments that must be one of absurd or vacuous more fundamentally defeatist.
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@zotz yes, yes, and yes.
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the first two are stated as exclusive or(s) so they can't be yes and yes there.
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@mlinksva The reason natural rights are so termed is because they are natural - not supernatural, such as the "fairies" you suggest are kin.
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@mlinksva Economic and even thermodynamic arguments against monopolies do not preclude ethical arguments (see 'wrong').
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@mlinksva The "nonsense on stilts" 'argument' against natural rights is not an argument, tho appeals to utilitarian-totalitarian spectrum.
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@crosbie curious shift there from required to not precluded.
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@mlinksva No shift at all, just an observation upon your link to the DKLevine document: http://identi.ca/url/62674637
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@zotz I took the first as "inalienable, natural, x-granted, and such", second as "human created and enforced, with great variation"
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@crosbie https://identi.ca/notice/87109755 indicates http://identi.ca/url/62674637 does not provide understanding of (c) et al problems.
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@mlinksva I commend the DKLevine paper, but it is an economic, not an ethical treatise. Hence why it doesn't touch on natural rights.
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@mlinksva DKLevine's economic treatise doesn't give understanding of what is http://identi.ca/url/62679974 with #copyright
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meant as: if inalienable rights don't exist then they can't be abused.
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