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UEFI lock-in business prompted me to update my list of Pareto-efficient laws: http://ur1.ca/7jl5e with something I conc…
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@carlopiana I object to your 'Moral rights do not apply to software' - some art *IS* software, and made by artists as such.
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@carlopiana there exists no clear boundary between 'art' and software' - they overlap.
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Overlapping is minimal and if you read the rationale you see that the reasons are overwhelming to avoid applying same m…
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@carlopiana I assume that was a reply to me. I object STONGLY. I want my moral rights whether I put paint to cavas or write software
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@carlopiana ...it's *my* art and *I* choose my medium. ALL media should be recognized as art if used by an artist.
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@carlopiana ...any 'rationale' denyiong that is denying my freedom of expression as an artist
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@carlopiana there are only overwhelming reasons to recognize art for what it is *regardless* of the medium used.
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@carlopiana your 'rationale' simply does not apply to art. talking about 'soul' and 'mechanics' simply demonstrates ignorance about art
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@carlopiana 'soul' is so 19th cenury - artists were creating programs in the 20th and are continuing to do so in this century.
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I will write more on the rationale and I hope after that you will concur with me that we are speaking of two very diffe…
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Please check in again.
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@marjolein, check in now. Sorry, I realize I replied to me and not to you earlier on. Flaw in status.net web interface.
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PLS clarify: you claim that you can write artistic software, or that because you are an artist your code is a form of art?
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@carlopiana I am NOT talking about 'artistic features attached to software' - I am talking about software used *as a medium* in art
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Then again I seem to have understood correctly and we are speaking of two entirely separate issues. Maybe you can provi…
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To clarify my concern, there are people claiming that writing software, i.e. finding the best algorithm, is a form of a…
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@carlopiana this whole argument of 'soul' vs. 'mechanic' is *exactly* what went on in the late 19th century when some artists...
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...were starting to use photography; photography was brushed of as 'mechanic' and thus not possibly art. It was nonsense then, still is now
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art does not need 'soul'. art can be an expression / usage of *any* human capacity, including strict rationalism and mathematics.
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@carlopiana writing software is NOT the same thing as 'finding the best algorithm'. the latter is problems solving; the solution...
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ACK. It wasn’t clear before, but that was the justification to protect the integrity of an artistic work against unwa…
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@carlopiana ...can be 'elegant' but that does not make it art. I am talking about artists who use software as a *medium* for their art
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I agree, and law agrees too. Then the law establishes a difference between a plain picture and an artistic one. Or take…
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@carlopiana simply this: moral rights apply to art, period. *regardless* of medium used. software (written by the artist) can be a medium.
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And please don’t get me started on “then how we can discern artistic photos from plain photos”. I have had this d…
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@marjolein I mean “waive same right” (not “art”)
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@carlopiana look up some names as 'homework': Gottfried Michael Koenig, Peter Struycken, Werner Kaegi, Stan Tempelaars,
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@carlopiana Leo Geuts (that's a hard one). Oh, and me: the *first* art student in the Netherlands to write programs to create art
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@carlopiana also: Telcosystems. tip: some of these even have Wikipedia pages. (And I know all of them personally.)
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@carlopiana ALL of them use or used writing software as a medium for their art.
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@marjoleink oops ypot - that should be 'Leo Geurts' (but he's hard to find anyway.)
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I think you have a point, as I have written the rule poorly because it seems to deny that software can be a work of art.
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@carlopiana No. the point is that photography can be an artistic medium. and software can be an artistic medium. so can paint.
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@carlopiana NONE of the media used by artists are 'artistic' of and by themselves. It's purely *intention* that matters - medium does not.
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@carlopiana besides, a 'plain photo' can very well *be* art. 'artistic' is just such a red herring as 'soul' and 'mechanic' are.
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@carlopiana no. software can be a *medium* for art. There's a difference. I used computer programs, analog electronic music, ...
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@carlopiana ...knitting instructions, and printed instructions for people to execute. All 'lists of instructions' - thus programs.
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@carlopiana ...and yes, I had to fight for my right to use *any* medium - that was partly the point. That's why I'm passionate about this.
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@carlopiana or, you can consider the software (instructions) as *part* of the work of art, and the result of executing it another part of it
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@carlopiana but (imo) software is never art by itself, even if created by an artist, it's always created with a particular aim in mind.
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@carlopiana right. no *unwanted* changes, the right to be recognized as author - those are moral rights...
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@carlopiana ...and the *do* apply to software created by an artist as part of or medium for their art. (which doesn't exclude...
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@carlopiana ...the possibility that it could be free, open software as well! moral rights still apply.
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@carlopiana please do look up those people I mentioned. Writing software to create art (with) goes right back to the 1960s!
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@carlopiana one of them: http://www.koenigproject.nl/
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@carlopiana the distinction is in *intent* - not in how successful it was
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@carlopiana neither. I say that I can use software (I write) as a medium or means to create art. if the result could not exist...
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@carlopiana ...without executing the program (whether electronic or not) then the program is art or rather a part of the art.
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@carlopiana paint can be a medium, stone can be a medium, software can be a medium. whether it *is* depends on intent.
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@Marjoleink I see your point a programme that produces let's say an amazing 3d environment is art whether the programme is running or not.
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@carlopiana I looked at your update and can only conclude you still don't get it. In art, both 'soul' and 'mechanic' have their place...
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@carlopiana ...neither distinguishish at from not-art. As long as you keep that phraseology, you demonstrate a 19th-century view of art
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I understand your point, but I don’t think you understand I am not saying that, I acknowledge the alleged reason why …
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@carlopiana ...it is also not about 'artistic features' in software, but only software, created by the artist, used as medium for their art
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IOW, I am not dealing with art or philosophy. I am dealing with software. You must acknowledge that 99.99..% of softare…
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@carlopiana percentages are irrelevant (you have no basis for that number anyway).
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@carlopiana when you are 'dealing with software' you are ALSO dealing with art.
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@carlopiana I 'must' not acknowledge any fictional number - whatever the real number is, it is irrelevant.
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@carlopiana but you must acknowledge it is the *artist* who decides what is art, whether is is paint on canvas, photography, or software
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@carlopiana your text clearly demonstrates that you do NOT understand my point at all...
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I surely can. But here we are not discussing what is art and what is not. We are discussing of whether it is efficient …
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@carlopiana ...Start by scratching the bit about 'soul' and 'mechanic'. If you can do that, maybe you have an inkling of understanding.
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Sorry “by and large is not art”.
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@carlopiana if only 'soul' is the reason for rights for art, and not 'mechanics' that denies one hell of a lot of artists their rights.
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@carlopiana ...and which does not. it is downright absurd to decide on 'rights' for art based on 19th-century ideas.
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@carlopiana 'soul' and 'mechanisc' have equal rights. I will NEVER accept those as a way to distinguish which has rights...
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@carlopiana if that is the 'alleged reason' for rights for art, then that reason is simply invalid.
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@carlopiana it is *invalid* to apply 19th-century ideas to decide about rights for art in the 21st century (or 20th, for that matter).
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@carlopiana no. *you* cannot claim anything is art. ONLY the artist can decide what (of what they produce) is art.
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@carlopiana doesn't matter what is 'efficient': if something is art (by the artist's declaration), it needs to be protected as art. period.
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@carlopiana if 'the law' cannot recognize those rights, then 'the law' is faulty.
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@carlopiana again, percentages do not matter. 'by and large', is nothing but a vaguer expression than a percentage: it does not matter.
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No. 1000 times no. Art has flourished for 2 millenia without any kind of legal protection. It is plainly wrong to assum…
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I should say 3 millenia.
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@carlopiana it is absurdly simple: WHEN software is art, it must be protected as such. When it is not, not.
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I agree 100%.
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@carlopiana it is equally wrong to protect only *some* art and not other art, based on the medium used.
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@carlopiana Why use those 19th-century ideas to decide in the 21sth century what to protect? That is terribly, horribly WRONG.
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@carlopiana probably much longer. it is an invalid argument. We're talking about what criteria are applied NOW to decide what to protect
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The medium IS a legitimate discrimen to award certain protection. EG figure if Norman Foster decided to prohibit renova…
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And also the place and circumstances where a work is displayed in public make a difference. EG a statue in a public place vs. in a museum.
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@carlopiana that is not about medium. it is about balancing public good vs the right of the artist. if renovation is *needed*, ...
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@carlopiana ...then do it in such a way that it respects the ideas of the original artist (ie, architect)
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@carlopiana we're actually seeing 'bad' renovations being redone here for such reasons. maybe the Dutch are better at protecting art?
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The concept of “needed” is vague and there is no requirement to respect the ideas of the original architect, only u…
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@carlopiana so, I *deny* that medium is a valid criterium to decide WHAT to protect.
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But that is (EG= exempli gratia) a case where moral rights are different. In non artistic photography the same is true …
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@carlopiana You case only illustrates that - depending on the *role* of a work of art, not medium - one must also decide *how* to protect
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@carlopiana I say one must respect the ideas of the original architect, but in context. Any renovation should not destroy that.
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@carlopiana If 'renovation' does not respect the original ideas, then it is equivalent to destruction (+ maybe creating something new)
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@marjoleink could you please blog that or something? I'm probably not the only person who is very interested but finds format hard to read.
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@carlopiana 'non artitistic' photography is not art. there is nothing to waive. same for software that IS NOT art.
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@carlopiana but when software, or photography, IS art (as declared by the artist), then it needs protection as art.
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I’m sorry, but it’s not true. The artistic nature of a picture must be evaluated independently from the will of the…
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@irinarempt I don't have a good place for that at the moment - but, noted. Not soon, but soonish.
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@irinarempt It makes me very sad to have to defend my right to choose my own medium and have it still be art AGAIN after 35-odd years
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You might agree that the artist is in conflict of interest when alleging that their picture is a work of art (better: h…
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@carlopiana it seems you are talking about quality. but whether a work is 'artistic' CAN be decided only by the artist.
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@carlopiana and who says 'must be evaluated' and who is going to do the 'evaluation', and on what grounds?
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@carlopiana No. No conflict of interest at all.
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So you reckon that because one is an artist they can decide whether a picture shall be protected 70 years or 20 be not …
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