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Theists believe there must be (a) god(-s). !Atheists believe there cannot be (a) god(-s). I think we just don’t know. And that’s OK: !agnos
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Christopher Murtagh likes this.
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@arnebab Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of deities. #Agnosticism is compatible with both #atheism and #theism.
Christopher Murtagh likes this. -
that depends on your definition on !atheism. Many atheists are quite ideologic in their view that there cannot be gods. See ur1.ca/9al4g
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as such !agnosticism is compatible with non-ideologic !atheism and #theism, but not with the ideologic (=strong) parts of both.
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if a religious person admits that he/she might be wrong, I see no problems with the assumption that a god exists (though I disagree).
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@arnebab There is no such thing as ideologic atheism. The broad definition is most accurate and includes the narrow sense of the word.
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just check the wikipedia page on !atheism. It calls ideologic atheism “strong atheism”: the belief that belief in god is false.
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@arnebab The word ideologic does not appear on that page. Also, the validity of this categorizations is disputed. http://tinyurl.com/c7j3643
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The word ideologic is what I use for strong atheism, because if you cannot prove something you believe, then it’s an ideology.
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in that case I must assume you are ideologically against Russel's Teapot: bit.ly/JnJXpJ you can't prove it's not there... !atheism
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@arnebab err... isn't believing something you cannot prove the very definition of faith?
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@arnebab How does the fact that SOME atheists are sure make the definition of !atheism : "ALL atheists are sure"? #strangedefinition
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@indi I suppose the atheists who aren't sure are agnostics though? cc @@arnebab
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@silner @indi @arnebab just as being sure there is no Russel's Teapot, being sure there is no God is not ideology: bit.ly/Kb4r47 !atheism
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@sliner That is not the definition of agnostic, though. (A)gnosticism is a belief about knowledge. (A)theism is a belief about existence.
Mikael likes this. -
@indi @silner @arnebab wrong. !atheism is the *rejection* oif a certain belief: bit.ly/KUsCkN do it with Russel's Teapot, you'll get it
Sander likes this. -
@rysiek I don't think you're reading what I'm writing carefully enough, because I'm not contradicting you.
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@rysiek I didn't use "belief" to describe atheism. I used it to describe (a)theism. Theism is the belief, atheism is the lack.
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@rysiek It was the best I could do in 140 chars.
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@indi fair enough. I think we can assume more people misinterpreted your dent the way I did. a lesson for both of us, I guess. :)
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@silner: yepp. Atheists who say they do not know for certain are agnostic (as I understand it).
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I am not ideologically against Russels teapot. I just think we might be able to find it someday. Until then, I’ll happily ignore it.
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To me atheism which does not admit that it might be proven wrong at some point in the future is a belief and an ideology.
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Just like believing in the ether (as carrier of electromagnetic waves) was a belief.
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@arnebab Unfortunately you understand wrong. Atheists who say they don't know for certain are still atheists. Agnostic means something else.
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and believing that there is no ether was a belief, too. Till it got proven: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson-Morley-Experiment
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@arnebab If I ask, "Do you believe a god exists?" and you answer ANYTHING other than "Yes", you're atheist. Even if it's "I don't know."
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@arnebab If you think one day we'll be able to prove a god exists (or doesn't), you're not agnostic. At best, you're temporarily agnostic.
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My take on that prove-or-disprove is simple: If we cannot prove the existence of god, then it has no measureable effect, so it’s irrelevant
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@arnebab Put altogether, sounds like you're a non-agnostic atheist. (Or temporarily-non-agnostic atheist.)
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@arnebab Me, I doubt gods exist, but I don't think it can ever be proven yes or no. I'm an agnostic atheist.
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that logic gets me out of the “admitting atheist could be wrong strengthens theists”-trap.
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I don’t think we will be able to prove the existence of a god. I just don’t think that it is impossible that we might do so.
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you could say I am temporarily agnostic and temporarily atheistic, because I think I could be proven wrong in the future.
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I prefer to call myself agnostic, because there are atheists who believe that they cannot be wrong with the fervor of theists’ belief in god
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@arnebab That would just make you non-agnostic atheist.
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@arnebab There are fervent atheists, but so what? What they believe or do doesn't change what you are or I am.
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@arnebab You're fixating on a very tiny fringe group of atheists. There are kooky Canadians, too, but I still call myself Canadian.
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could we use a fixed definition of the words atheist and agnostic? I currently use Wikipedia. If you use another source, please link it.
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I like to go to the roots. Atheist agnostic. I don't believe in any deity, but I'm not entirely certain. deist is certainly possible.
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@arnebab The Wikipedia definitions are correct.
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that’s what I agree to.
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then there are strong atheists who deny the possibility of a god and strong agnostics who say that we can never know the answer.
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Regarding the queſtion of atheism versus agnotics, i go with Bertrand Russell: http://is.gd/jNVlVm
Arne Babenhauserheide and Kuro Sawai like this. -
@arnebab Yes, that's correct. Though for atheists at least, the strong type is a very small minority. They don't define the whole.
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then we might have the perception bias, as the strong type possibly is a lot more vocal than the weak type.
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I think it's more of a twisting the truth thing. I can't think of a single high-profile atheist who you'd call a strong atheist.
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Who are the high-profile atheists you mean? The atheists I mean are those you read online… (which likely gives a bias to strong…)
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dawkins is agnostic atheist, hitchens same, harris, etc.
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or listened to his talks, or listened to his positions :)
X11R5 likes this. -
@indi especially since I know quite a few atheists in real life but not a single hard atheist… (right @chaosstar666 ?)
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