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@dMaggot Microsoft apologizes for cringeworthy 'penis' song at NDC 2012 http://b1t.it/bBG5 -- ZDNet (@ZDNet)
- Andre Moss likes this.
- The Root's Updates repeated this.
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Brief blog post re: #Microsoft #NDC song. ur1.ca/9jysw #Sexism is a computing-industry wide problem, not just in software freedom community
Ricardo Chung likes this. -
@bkuhn not just the computing industry either.
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Nobody reasonable ever said otherwise. But we need to tackle both problems.
Christopher Allan Webber likes this. -
@brettcsmith Right… and FOSS shouldn't hold itself "lower" than the proprietary industry (& evidence suggests we are doing a bit worse)
Taryn Fox likes this. -
"Surely we can do way better than them in regards to diversity!" should be our attitude.
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Honestly, these things are happening every time everywhere so someone needs to fix the society and many people tried that already...failed
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@bkuhn fingernail chalkboard; our-side-better-or-at-least-not-worse punditry. problem worse here, must change culture sans suits+bureaucracy
Christopher Allan Webber and Richard Fontana like this. -
Sexism is always present in not same level interacting groups. It's another face to remember priviledges and dominant power to minorities.
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When I said not same level interacting groups it might be perceived that way too and not by rules
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@mlinksva, sorry it came across that way. I'm trying to dissuade this idea that Free Software is worse that's all too common.
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@mlinksva, BTW, nails on chalkboard doesn't actually bother me. My ears are weird: I'm bothered by diff frequencies than most people.
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@cwebber, I still dispute that. It's not clear to me we're doing *worse* at leadership levels. Maybe at entry-level interest.
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It's common because all available evidence suggests it's true. Surveys indicate fewer women participate in FLOSS than larger IT industry.
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@brettcsmith, most people active in FLOSS tend to be leaders/high ranking tech employees. Similar surveys confirm glass ceiling everywhere.
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@brettcsmith,to be clear: sexism is *rampant* & constant in CS generally & has been for decades;My argument is merely FLOSS isn't worse.
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There is evidence at least here: http://flosspols.org/ read the report.
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And "entry-level-interest" affects a lot! Think: how do most people get into free software? More than proprietary sw, through friends
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Follow that with most people are friends with people of own gender, and so you get a feedback loop.
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Add on top of that the awkwardness and discomfort of being "the only woman in the room" and the feedback loop spirals further
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So there's an inherent element in free software that makes it harder than with proprietary sw, even if good intentions were somehow equal
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So I do believe the problem is worse, but not because we are worse people. But we do need to work harder at it!
Rob Myers likes this. -
Further numbers also sourced in http://people.cs.umass.edu/~wallach/talks/jitp.pdf but I can't find what those charts are referencing
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@cwebber,that evidence seems to say we've serious sexism problems in FLOSS,on which we're agreed;Doesn't compare it to whole tech industry.
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Many proprietary companies have affirmative action programs to get women involved w/ proprietary. Maybe accounts for entry-level difference?
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I agree we should work harder, but because Free Software should exceed what happens in proprietary software realm & we currently don't.
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@bkuhn I don't remember what nails on chalkboard sound like. Non-aurally FoC works as metaphor just a tiny bit suggestive of torture.
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@bkuhn it is very clear what you're trying to do: spin, where FLOSS is your horse. Spin works sometimes to control news cycle/quarter $/...
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@bkuhn .../election but is a terrible long-term strategy. Surprised you pursue it given you've stated software freedom a >lifelong struggle.
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Maybe this #establishment thing @fontana goes on about leads to spin.
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@bkuhn Strikes me that there is greater gender diversity in !establishment than FLOSS generally but complex reasons for that I suppose.
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@bkuhn "most people active in FLOSS tend to be leaders/high ranking tech employees" huh? You may be confusing 2 different things, not sure.
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@mlinksva interesting point. Has occurred to me common characteristic of !establishment is its being out of touch with reality
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@bkuhn I'm guessing the people you know personally (or say who are famous) are more likely to fit that description
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@mlinksva seems more like cognitive dissonance, naive supposition ideological strains ought to give fs culture non-sexist character
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My point is that to work on FLOSS, you've got to be a better developer than the average C#/.NET code monkey w/ a #Microsoft certification.
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"Fewer women get started in FLOSS": IMO answer's "unknown". Proprietary corporate hiring depts *do* have an easier time fixing that issue.
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@mlinksva, I believe it's possible to do long-term spin, & I'd readily agree my blog post yesterday is about long-term spin on this issue.
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@bkuhn to be *good* yes, but to start contributing to some random project (or start a new one), no, as you explained to me long ago.
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@bkuhn I sometimes think biggest barrier to entry in FLOSS is illusion that it requires *substantively* good development skills
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@fontana,If proprietary exists at all,I'd prefer tactically that only strong developers working on FLOSS &leave mediocre ones in proprietary
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@fontana The "Open Source is better" argument sustains this illusion.
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@fontana Ah, timing....
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@bkuhn "Strong"? !disturbing
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@bkuhn I suspect most FLOSS developers also write proprietary-licensed code
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@bkuhn more precisely, you seem to be imagining world where there are 2 disjoint sets: proprietary corporations and FLOSS projects.
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Interesting; I'd thought that tradition had died out. It's how #GNU community began: proprietary developers hacking on nights/weekends.
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@bkuhn think of webdev world, majority of github committers, that's at least true if you count proprietary SaaS as proprietary sw generally.
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@bkuhn in an illusionary way, though. Equal pay is still often absent. Harassment is still part of the workplace.
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I should've asked Roland #McGrath when I met him if he'd ever written proprietary software. I was too much in awe when I met him to ask much
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@bkuhn long-term spin possible, but attractiveness warped by survivor bias. Winners write history, but earlier faced, fixed their problems.
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@mlinksva,that part I agree w/ &software freedom community *must* be best place for women hackers. It's harder for us b/c no central control
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@bkuhn Well there is the !establishment but I believe it to be dominated by men
Christopher Allan Webber likes this. -
I am reminded of that famous Barry #Commoner essay that is cited as evidence of folly of ignoring #collectiveaction problems
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Except I can't locate copy or title or anything so maybe not so famous
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FLOSS has way fewer female coders than proprietary: http://ur1.ca/9k9ky Proprietary isn't better, but worth asking what it's _doing_ better
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@jewelfox,my theory is proprietary sw companies built affirmative action programs to give jobs to women developers, FLOSS doesn't have that☹
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Which I think are slowly but noticeably making an effect. FOSS folks need to support *more* outreach!
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@bkuhn kind of hard to have affirmative action when there's not so much of a 'hiring' process. perhaps that accts. for …
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I am hesitant to bring this up; I don't want to derail this sentiment! So, who FOSS folks? Because I feel that I am a F…
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@maiki I think no matter what kind of participation (even if just a user/enthusiast) your support is important for diversity stuff
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I feel this is true esp for diversity stuff because it's partly about having a welcoming community & changing attitudes. Everyone can help!
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"no matter what kind of participation (even if just a user/enthusiast) your support is important" There is our seed. Th…
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@maiki and it's 100% true, given network effects (writ large, including social acceptability and policy)
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#GNOME does, which is why I'm working on it http://ur1.ca/8wh3c I suspect other factors are involved also
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My GWO mentor was an intern earlier IIRC http://ur1.ca/8wh3c I may mentor someone afterwards
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Indeed & my org, !Conservancy, was first to join !GNOME's OPW: ur1.ca/8tm95 But it's difficult to fund:proprietary ones are *much* bigger.
Mike Linksvayer likes this.
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