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@hook : @bkuhn claims he's routinely denied admittance as subscriber to #FTF-Legal mailing list. http://ur1.ca/9i7jd Any response? #twwiw
about a year ago from web-
@fontana: The criteria are public and I’d argue minimal to tickle out constructive debate out of lawyers: http://is.gd/EWzKvf
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@hook I asked you & Karsten publicly at LinuxCon Europe why I didn't meet criteria &you said the criteria were secret. When did that change?
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@fontana,I guess only back-peddle argument they'll make is I in fact don't have such experience;Co-writing AGPL&GPLv3 RTL Exception no good?
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@bkuhn well in general I don't see why having contributed to authorship of arb. license == expertise (easy examples should come to mind)
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No offense to @keynote2k of course; I am the one who nominated him and stand by such nomination. :-)
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@fontana,I won't be falsely modest. I've been key part of FLOSS legal policy for > decade;∃ 5 ppl at most who have more profound exp than me
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Evan Prodromou likes this.
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@bkuhn are you taking credit for #OrthodoxCompatibilityTheory ?
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@fontana: The main obstacle is @bkuhn stated publicly he isn’t prepared to adhere to the rules of the network. http://is.gd/ru0b7J
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@hook To be honest, wasn't that post long after he was denied access to the list though?
Jason Self likes this. -
@hook (Dent 2) I don't take post to mean that he won't follow the rules of whatever club he joins.
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@hook I think he meant only that secret membership clubs should be obsolete in favor of open & transparent ones for more public benefit.
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@hook But thinking things should more open & transparent doesn't mean you can't also agree to the rules as they exist.
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@hook,Where did I say that? The blog post you link to says Chatham house rule is difficult to follow;it doesn't say I wasn't prepared to try
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@hook I don't read that as @bkuhn saying he refuses ever to adhere to #ChathamHouseRule for a list, just that he disapproves.
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@hook I myself strongly disapprove of #ChathamHouseRule lists (such as that which existed for #Harmony) but I am willing to adhere to policy
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@hook BTW you don't need #ChathamHouseRule to get lawyers discussing !fs legal issues. #OpenBar while it lasted proves that.
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How does one get on that list? Plenty of people seem to assume I'm on it but I've never been invited.
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@fontana,I don't know why you're afraid to nominate me. I've been nominated before multiple times & universe is still here. Go ahead & do so
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@bkuhn I don't currently read #ChathamHouseRule as that restrictive but one problem with it is difficulty of interpretation cc: @hook
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@bkuhn my assumption had been you were only self-nominated. Is that not so?
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@bkuhn Having done some research, I think adoption of #ChathamHouseRule represents liberalization of #FTF-Legal policy
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@bkuhn Would like to know why you didn't nominate me for #FLOSSFoundations or #OSI "Charter Members" before undertaking such a step !nat
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@fontana,Indeed,my biggest issue w/ #ChathamHouseRule is interpretation difficulty;I believe firmly in complying w/ rules(eg: !GPL) cc @hook
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@fontana,re: #OSI "Charter Membership",a #ChathamHouseRule zone™:Invitation list was fait accompli when I was invited: no nomination process
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@bkuhn what do you think of GPL code distributed with proprietary installers on Windows? Is the GPL triggered?
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@fontana,However,I note that public criteria (which I meet) don't *require* nomination. Nevertheless,I love when ppl nominate me for things☺
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@smaffulli,Yeah,I saw your dent earlier on this &meant to reply. What I meant to say was: I need more details to tell! Details always matter
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@fontana, I can't see how #ChathamHouseRule ™ could *possibly* allow naming people who are on #ftf-legal in a public forum. Can you explain?
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@bkuhn My point though is that you are !disturbing ly drawn to exclusive groups. Proved by your comments to me on #FLOSSFoundations. !tnat
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@bkuhn I've never heard it posited that #ChathamHouseRule signifies secrecy of *membership*. Cf http://ur1.ca/9ija2
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@bkuhn interesting; for political theatre purposes perhaps multiple persons should nominate you at same time.
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@bkuhn I have no memory of that. I now know it existed at time but only became conscious of it post-SFLC.
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@fontana, #ChathamHouseRule ™ appears to clearly forbid revealing names of participants. Not your fault: poorly drafted rule w/out case law.
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@fontana, I know of a few other participants but not many (cf: #ChathamHouseRule ™), so I can't easily recruit such nominations. You could!
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@fontana,actually,I hope it *is* arbitrary b/c at least then my Kafkaesque experience can be attributed merely to incompetence & not malice.
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@bkuhn I don't agree, but in any case it can't forbid revealing names of participants learned through means other than CHR-controlled list
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@fontana,I'd assume that the first category alone makes the whole statement true. I'm not particularly well known; at best C-list celebrity.
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@bkuhn don't confuse fame in #FLOSS / !establishment w/ fame among "open source lawyers" + fellow travelers.
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@bkuhn Indeed sociopolitical complexity here is interesting; #FSFE and #FTF-Legal are not part of !establishment I would argue
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@bkuhn I can tell you there's no voting. Not even stomach-wrenching "is this person elite enough?" implicit ritual on #FLOSSFoundations
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@fontana missed a chance to use !establishment there
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@bkuhn you misunderstood. Issue is, how many supporters of you would I find? I can only think of a few offhand.
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AFAIK, only #FLOSSFoundations implicit ritual:"is newbie likely to do a political ax job on another member?" I call it the "Buy Fields Rule"
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@fontana, Of course, I can't help you since you can't tell me who they are. I wouldn't want to entice you to violate #ChathamHouseRule ™!
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@bkuhn I'm not even sure the #racketeers would come to your aid. !establishment
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@bkuhn Such !establishment institutions reflect the chumminess and elitism of the proprietary sw industry they, in a sense, rebel against
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@fontana Which list and what timeframe?
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Yes please. Then I can nominate @bkuhn and watch heads explode.
Bradley M. Kuhn likes this. -
@bkuhn I just came up w/ list of 18 subscribers who clearly know who you are. Probably not much more than 20 though.
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@bkuhn One of my concerns is that you not become some sort of pet radical. We used to see that phenomenon in US culture several decades ago.
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@zak I just realize I made unjustified inference. But anyway this was 2008-09-18.
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Good resulted anyway: exclusion from #OSI "Charter Members" led to development of #CriticalEstablishmentTheory of !fs legal scholarship
Mike Linksvayer and Richard Fontana like this. -
Full message was: "Hi Richie. At the current time, this is a closed list open only to charter members." !establishment
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Interesting http://ur1.ca/9iloh "suggests a closed social group which selects its own members" precisely applicable
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@fontana, there'll always be people who treat me like a "pet radical". Usually, those who do don't actually have authority, I find.
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What are "OSI Charter Members", @fontana?
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@webmink No one has told you about the #Chartist Movement? !disturbing
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@webmink not sure if this is about the same thing: http://ur1.ca/9ix1c
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@webmink @kfogel @zak @bkuhn Archives of secret #CharterMembers list should be made public IMO
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@bkuhn as a start why don't you publish all your posts to #CharterMembers list w/ suitable redactions? It is in the public interest.
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@fontana I'm for it, but all participants should agree.
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@zak Since 50 #CharterMembers never publicly identified, no way for me to contact to request. cc: @webmink @kfogel @bkuhn !establishment
Evan Prodromou likes this. -
@fontana I don't remember what was promised to charter members, re. privacy etc. I suspect that is public somewhere though.
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Nothing ever came of it, and it's all forgotten. The new reality is http://ur1.ca/9ixe4 which is open.
Evan Prodromou likes this. -
Has @bkuhn got too dull to troll?
Evan Prodromou likes this. -
Pretty sure it was another Chatham House thing. But I don't much care. It failed.
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sazius likes this.
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Not sure how to do that under #ChathamHouseRule ™,particularly b/c @webmink seems wrong: Charter Member body doesn't appear to be disbanded
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If it's still meeting in secret, it's news to me.The mailing list was sent a "shut-down" message a considerable time ago & is not relevant.
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All the same, being worthy to be trolled by both @fontana /and/ @bkuhn has to be some sort of mark of success.
Mikael and Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) like this. -
I never got a shut-down message & mailing list is still live. Last message I got indicates group will be active in a new role, actually.
Richard Fontana likes this. -
Fascinating; I've not received such a message and believe the opposite to your prediction.
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Let me know what you receive; I'll be interested to know both what it says and who it's from!
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That can be arranged if you want. Or alternatively, if you don't. Both can work.
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@webmink Thanks, my preference at the moment is for no such message. :-)
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@webmink, I have no desire to troll you on this. I assumed the group silently defunct. Archives (just check) confirm my impression, though.
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The "strategic ignoring" of valid questions is widely used by FLOSS politicians. I rarely use it, but some use it constantly,as we see here.
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@bkuhn an example for the detail: TuxPaint and OpenCandy. I have no Windows system to check the installer myself http://is.gd/TnyXap
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@fontana Indeed, there is an answer in the FAQ http://ur1.ca/9kz1x
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@smaffulli,Disturbingly,they seemed to want me to advocate #Conservancy projects use #OpenCandy. Yuck! (Besides being an IRS problem anyway)
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@clacke Thanks for the info, although the idea of using an ad network to install packages does strike me as a very strange one
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@expatpaul We seem to have some syntactic / semantic mismatch. It’s a service that show ads while you are running the…
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@expatpaul Of course, it’s perfectly valid to find that idea a strange one. But it’s one way to bring some revenue …
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@clacke I think I understand you, I am just struggling to see the point.
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@clacke Arguably so, but the number of times you install a package is trivial compared to the number of times you use it.
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