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Fun transcript of interview with John Wiegley about emacs... http://ur1.ca/9qq2z but....
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"wish emacs weren't under copyleft so we can have an emacs app store" makes me remember why I appreciate copyleft so much
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the fact that I know every emacs extension I download *has* to be free software means it's much more useful software to me!
sdp likes this. -
@cwebber App stores are just broken package managers with the cracks plastered over with "cool"
Bob Jonkman and Christopher Allan Webber like this. -
@maiki Agreed that software under copyleft could be sold, and a "support this software" method of things, even tied to apt!, would be nice
Taryn Fox likes this. -
I didn't watch the video, but I want to point out that a store for emacs would be helpful, if done correctly, in suppor…
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Dismissing something because it's "cool" is a "cool" way to admit your own lack of ability to create something non-geeks like
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@jewelfox Apple spend an awful lot on marketing. That's different from producing something people just so happen to "like".
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@robmyers They also spend a lot on R&D, usability testing, and obtaining monopsony control over supply chains http://ur1.ca/4n363
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Also your "just so happen to 'like'" phrasing suggests that when people like something the reason why is a mystery to you
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Scratch that, I interpreted your statement wrong and read my biases into it, sorry
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@jewelfox free software isn't a "subculture". A little company you may have heard of called Apple base their OS on it.
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@jewelfox As do the people who make GNU/Linux (first two) and Android (all three). The difference is, as you point out, cultural.
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We're aware. Apple has profit incentives to be inclusive (of rich people at least) though. FOSS culture has contempt for "cool"
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And often "diversity," "women programmers," "people who don't RTFM," "people who expect it to work like M$ windoze," etc.
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"It's just because of the marketing" is an excuse to avoid both introspection and outreach
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@laurelrusswurm In this case, yes. Though I'd argue there are some other cases where one might want to choose non-copyleft
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Eg, if your copyleft, non CLA program makes heavy use of a permissively licensed library,
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...it takes more effort to refactor sections to send patches upstream to the library
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@laurelrusswurm but in the vast, vast majority of cases, I think you are right
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@cwebber your example of wanting to use a more permissive library is an example of a use copyleft prevents ... copyleft *is* a restriction
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@cwebber FOSS folks tend to consider !copyleft desirable, but that's only because we live in a world polluted with !copyright
Christopher Allan Webber likes this. -
@laurelrusswurm Well refactor code out and back to the library… copyleft applications tend to be able to use permissive libraries… but yes
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(And that can still be done, but it involves investigating code provenance and getting contributor permission, which is usually possible)
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@laurelrusswurm Anyway, I was being #pedantic, but I think we pretty much agree ;)
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@laurelrusswurm Btw, you may (or may not) enjoy my longer ramblings on this subject: http://dustycloud.org/blog/field-guide-to-copyleft
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Which I am either re-linking here because I tend to repeat myself, or maybe because I am a self-promotional jerk; take your pick!
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@cwebber I'll give it a look
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♻ @cwebber: the fact that I know every emacs extension I download *has* to be free software means it's much more useful software to me!
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@cwebber interesting... I'd never realized that emacs apps had to be GPLed too. but how does that prevent app stores?!?
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@lxolivia I don't think it prevents "app stores" as in "marketed package managers" (which is not inherently bad), but
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@lxoliva it does prevent "app stores" as in DRM'ed mostly-proprietary distribution mechanisms with enforced sale mechanisms.
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@lxoliva and sorry again for mis-getting your name, I have the mispronunciation hard-coded into my thoughts, which results in misspelling :)
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@cwebber I see. DRMed and proprietary app store => the “app” is not short for application, but for apple, eh? :-)
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@cwebber heh. that's funny. how do we patch your thoughts? :-)
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@lxoliva Given my brain runs 50% from my orgmode files git repo I'd suggest sending patches there, but unfortunately it's a private repo ;)
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Ah, I meant to link to the transcript, not the flash-requiring video. My bad. http://ur1.ca/9qw4a
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That isn't my experience; I often speak with folks who don't understand copyleft (specifically CC licenses). I assume t…
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@maiki I don't think John Wiegley wants DRM per se, but proprietary licensing. Longish anti-GPL post by him is here: http://ur1.ca/9qw4l
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Also, to be fair to him, John Wiegley *is* one of the most prolific contributors of useful emacs code around, *and* he wrote ledger-cli
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So not as if he's someone who *just* wants to profit off things w/o giving back, but
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I benefit a lot from knowing all his & other emacs extensions have to be freesw. It makes emacs "lisp machine" a lot more interesting place!
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@jewelfox I think "app stores" annoy many for being inferior & intentionally broken (but more UI-friendly and pervasive) package managers
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that said, it's worth asking why "app stores" succeeded and our package managers haven't, even if better by design (which I think they are)
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@jewelfox I think you are right in that free software people are often too anti-marketing. I think we *should* be marketing ourselves
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That said, hard to hit eyeballs w/o deep pockets? & biggest problem still: free sw has a hard time hitting hardware distribution channels.
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I still think there's a lot we can do to expand beyond the er… free software circlejerk though. Marketing & outreach is part of that.
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huh, how does it "have" to be Free?
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@zotz if you distribute, must do so under GPL; if you don't, you have the 4 freedoms; in both cases, the sw is free for all its users
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@cwebber Having said that, "app stores'" focus on commercialism annoys me and is not a good idea in the long run IMO
Rob Myers likes this. -
Christopher Allan Webber likes this.
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@jewelfox I certainly agree that's a problem, and I hate free software clubhousing. I want everyone to come to our free software party :)
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@cwebber "They" say that too, but then the "party" is beer, loud music, strippers and trash-talking
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Everyone wants more partiers, "they" just think only people like them should show up and don't care how they exclude different people
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@jewelfox Well, that's not the kind of party I was thinking (or go to). Dinner parties are more my style. ;)
Taryn Fox likes this. -
you could distribute in violation of the copyright on the "parent" your sw still unFree and you can be sued. but no magic Free guarantee.
Mike Linksvayer likes this. -
@zotz good point!
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@zotz so yeah, that's true, but then again I don't know of anyone *trying* to distribute proprietary emacs extensions
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I think people do tend to pay attention to what's legally possible or not; similarly with blender...
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people *complain* constantly about not being able to sell proprietary extensions, but I don't see anyone *doing* so currently.
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(Not that there aren't businesses violating the GPL all the time... but there doesn't seem enough economic incentive to risk it here :))
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@zotz OTOH, I think you are right: GPL non-compliance happens all the time w/ emacs, but bc of negligence: posting code w/o proper licensing
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sure but blindly thinking you are safe getting any emacs extension without checking license may not be safe right?
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just because they can get sued does not mean you can't. right? and perhaps worse with some other gpl program other than emacs?
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@zotz That's true, and I *do* check to make sure licensing is there. But notably I've also found the emacs world tends to DTRT
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@zotz Though now that I'm looking at it, the emacswiki.org footer is kind of wonky and doesn't state #orlater
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@tychoish presumably if the emacswiki #metalicense holds water, #copyleft.next is compatible ;) /cc @fontana
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@jewelfox (I missed that at the time.) I've no desire to avoid either, quite the opposite, and I'm very sorry if I've given that impression.
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